This guy is a propagandist for the right. The bottom line is that the citizens of the Nordic countries all rate top in the happiness index, so are more than content with the way their countries are run. He is making a name for himself by writing books and promoting entrepreneurship. He seems to have an axe to grind against left leaning politics. His family were very wealthy under the Shah in Iran before being thrown out when the Ayatollas took over and they moved to Sweden. He did well under the Swedish system he now criticises, his family lost all their money and were penniless immigrants, yet he was well educated and has a degree in biotechnology. He runs a think tank in London.

@Marionville He said his family made the same amount of money when they worked as when they are on welfare, that in itself is ridiculous. I don't know if he is a propagandist or not, but there's more than just left and the right, as in the world isn't black and white. Also he's done studies to show that those countries had high happiness and prosperity before they became the welfare state that the happiness and wealth came from the culture of the people rather than the state. He gave the example of Iceland which is NOT a welfare state.

I don't want to watch a 30 min video. Care to summarize in a few paragraphs?

@Jess2zz Basically the success of the welfare states of the Nordic countries is due to the culture and lifestyle rather than the political system, the evidence of that is to look at those countries before they became welfare states. People typically had longer lives compared to US more so back then than now, those countries were already wealthy before they became welfare states so they had money to spare on welfare.

He gave an example of Iceland which is the only country that does not implement welfare system and people are just as happy as those did implement the system. The culture and lifestyle contribute most to their happiness and success, hard working and regular exercises etc.

He mentioned his parents made the same amount of money working as getting on welfare so many immigrants became dependent on the welfare system if they didn't have a hard working culture to begin with. He also mentioned those who immigrated to the US were a lot more successful than their cousins in the home country.

Another point about high tax is that the citizens were not aware of those hidden taxes and thought they were paying much less. The public health system is also bad as people typically wait long periods before they are treated and some cancer patient was told they could no longer be treated because they waited too long.

Book review [goodreads.com]

@peststudio Okay, he is one guy who in my opinion has an agenda. Why don’t you find out if any other studies agree with him, I think you will find a concensus in other reports and studies by highly reputable organisations that will reute his arguments. You have to compare with others before you believe one thing. I am not saying that there are not other factors at play in why these countries consistently have come out top in indices of happiness etc, but I do know that argument he is using is the same one the right wing of the Tory party here in UK use against our welfare state. It is sometimes the case that people can be as well off not working as working, but these cases are very rare and not the norm and are usually confined to those with large families where the number of dependents a claimant has us taken into consideration. Single people virtually live on the breadline! I know he is very right wing because he has been interviewed on our Newsnight here in UK....his views are slanted against welfare economies and he is making a living out of selling his books...so has a motive!

@Marionville I would be interested in reading other studies about it, anything you can recommend? Also isn't every author making a living out of their books, exactly because they want to make a living that they put effort in giving their book a sound argument rather than writing a pile of bullshit

@peststudio Not off the top of my head, but I will try and find some.

@peststudio There is one by Shirley Jackson of your Univ.of Melbourne you could start by looking at. I don’t know how to do links to the internet properly, but you will find it at pursuit.unimelb.edu.au. There are others but I’m pretty new to the internet and I’m sure you will be able to find them yourself,

@Marionville thanks but this person is only a phd candidate, I wouldn't say he is a reputable source for information lol. Besides Iceland was lised no 3 on happiness index, so... The argument that welfare leads to happiness is not a new one when you look at just the correlation between happiness and welfare level, however correlation isn't enough to determine cause, there could often be a third underlying factor related to both, you will really need to look deeper to see the real cause.

@peststudio Okay go ahead and do your own research, I think you are missing the point by focusing on welfare being the source of their happiness. Nobody is suggesting that that is the only factor. As in most things it is much more nuanced. That was the first study I remembered reading and because it was done at Melbourne Uni.I thought it would interest you...there are plenty of others. You sound like you already think the Iranian guy is correct, so try to be objective and look up some other studies. I think the bottom line is still that their populaces are happy, the Icelandic example may may an anomaly, but one anomaly cannot be used to refute compelling numbers that agree,

@Marionville Why is Iceland an anomaly? You just admitted that welfare is not the only factor contributing to happiness, so why can't you accept that Nordic culture and lifestyle could also be a factor contributing to happiness? And looking at Iceland example that it could be more likely a factor than welfare state. I have read the other side and so far I have not seen any compelling evidence against his argument, and it seems you also can not suggest any. Facts are staring in our face, why choose to make up excuses for it

@peststudio Why are you so aggressive? I am not making excuses for anything, and I reaslise there are lots of facts at play here. I have had a long lifetime of experiencing and reading about other cultures. It is curious how the Scandic nations are so happy because psychologists have been baffled too by this. They spend half of their year in virtual perpetual darkness and used to be considered melancholy peoples. The fact that they also have 24 hours sunshine in summer obviously counters that, but then we should we consider these contrasts in light and dark in our assessment, I am sure this must play some part in their psyche. I don’t really know as much about Sweden or the others as I do about Norway as I am more interested in it. I have considered moving there, historically large parts of Scotland were under Norwegian rule and we have a shared heritage. Lots of place names are reminders of our Viking ancestors in the north and west of Scotland and of course the islands, especially Orkney and the Shetland’s, which are closer to Oslo than Edinburgh. I consider Norway to be the best exemplar of good governance in the world.

@Marionville, @peststudio you both have pretty different views on this guy. Are you both speaking just about the video or was their another source involved?

@Jess2zz I wasn’t just speaking about the video....I have seen and heard of him before. He is based here in London and runs a think tank jointly with the Conservative party. That red flags this guy right away. He is being used as a poster boy for the anti welfare state right to promote their agenda and he is writing books and making money on the back of it. That is my view....which may be considered biased by some others. I have read a lot of other studies which disagree with his views although he does make some valid points so I would not dismiss everything he says. I am not an expert on Scandinavian countries, but have a deeper knowledge of Norway which I am considering moving to. The worlds happiest country, and one if the richest.....what’s not to like!

@Marionville even those who are far leaning use some facts to make their points. He might be one.
All that aside, all but one of the countries spoken about in this thread are using socialist programs (or just much less than the others) and are rounding out the very top of the happiest nations in the world list. America I believe is at number 18. It's getting richer, but not happier.
So the U.S. only has 1/2 of things that's having you consider moving to Norway. That's more to the heart of my point. The money without the happiness lacks appeal. Then add free or cheap healthcare and education (and there are soo many other things to add) and boom! There is the appeal to those in non-"shitholes".
It's why we aren't getting the immigrants trump would like to get. The U.S doesn't have enough to offer to attract them.

After reading both of your assessments of this guy, I'm inclined to believe he's right leaning, and his experience is very personal. Not to say he's wrong, perhaps just a bit narrow or has a bias.
I guess my questions are:
What harm did switching to a more socialist system have?
Did he and his family live there before or after the system changed?
Was his education and opportunity made possible by this system and to what degree?
What were his parents working as? Either it's one hell of a welfare check, or they had less than stellar jobs....perhaps something else I'm not considering?
Besides what I'm guessing is cash welfare, what else does this system help with?
What nation models is he comparing alternatives to? What model shows that something closer to an American system would be better than "welfare states"?
I have a lot more questions, and I don't expect either of you to know these answers, but I think they are relevant.

@Marionville I'm sorry if I came across as aggressive? I thought I was just presenting the facts and I have no intention of offending anyone. Anyway everybody has the right to their own opinions, fact based or otherwise. I'm not right or left leaning as I don't see things as black and white and I agree with both sides when they make a valid point. I'm not trying to put down the left but I'm against big government and welfare state is big government.

@Jess2zz They were wealthy to begin with so they could afford a welfare state, this may not be feasible if the country isn't wealthy. On top of it this kind of system may not be sustainable as it requires a lot of tax payers, in the case if people get paid the same whether they work or not, the amount of people working will reduce. This did not happen in Nordic countries due to their culture of hard working, however a lot of immigrants chose not to work and be supported by the system and they become dependent on the state. Handing money to the poor doesn't help them, helping the poor means helping them to become independent.

@peststudio How do you connect that to America?
The U.S. is the richest country in the world (or pretty damn close to it). We could afford it, we could have afforded it more so around the year 2000, when we had a surplus.
I'd argue Americans have a strong work ethic. We have less benefits, and work more hours than those in Nordic countries. Our immigrants are known for taking jobs Americans typically don't want for fairly low wages. Even offering high wages for those jobs, Americans rarely keep them.
So, let's shift this a little, but not much. One could say that giving money/assistance to the poor just teaches them dependence. So, what incentive could be added to draw them into the work force? Based on the examples provided in this thread, I'd gather better wages for being in the work force would have eased some of the distaste for the welfare programs. I'd have questions about cost of living vs. the middle class incomes and what quality of life is a achieved with a typical income.
What is the goal of the welfare? Is it to keep people feed and off the streets while gathering education or job training? Are their types of welfare and income tiers for it. For example, is the assistance to someone disabled higher than a single, healthy adult?

@Jess2zz [theguardian.com]

@Jess2zz I don't know about that, it seems you had trouble supporting hurricane victims being the wealthiest country in the world? You were probably back then, and now your government grows bigger and your market is already less free than it was. Your immigrants worked harder because there was no welfare. If anything the welfare system should not be run by the government as government is known for being inefficient and wasteful with money due to lack of competition. Why hand in half of your income so a quarter of it goes to nothing.

@peststudio hold on, I get the impression you don't actually understand what you're referring to. We are and were more than capable of supporting hurricane victims. We just didn't. That funding needs to be approved, and it wasn't. I'm disgusted by it, but that's what happened and is still happening.
As for the markets, they are less restricted than they were a few years ago, and it's hurting us. It's allowing for big money interest groups and lobbyist to work with little to no oversight, leaving those without the power of wealth in the dust.
"Your immigrants worked harder because there was no welfare" remark makes no sense. We've had welfare systems in place well before I was born. 1940s I think. And it's actually not easy to get if you're young and healthy, unless you have children. Also, not all our immigrants can apply for assistance. Actually, many of our immigrants pay taxes and can't collect on programs they pay into, like social security and Medicare. Effectively, they help support important social programs that they can't participate in.
Your estimation of "half you're income" to taxes is way off. America has relatively low taxes. And They actually just cut them further.
Regardless, if we adopted this more Nordic approach, we'd be eliminating the incredibly high cost of private healthcare, student debt, and dropping poverty levels. If half of my income did that, I'd be ok with it. Right now, healthcare is soo expensive, I've had friends get married to get coverage. Get second or third jobs just to afford it. Is that better than working one job, having time to live and paying high taxes?
I have an issue with ineffective governing as well, but that shouldn't mean ripping support from the people, it should mean demanding better governing bodies and representation.

@Jess2zz Exactly they worked hard because they couldn't get welfare, if it was easily accessible then they wouldn't work, nobody wants to work a shitty job and get paid little money, common sense? I said half of your money because this is what Nodics pay, and you want their system so that's what you will pay. Instead of giving half of your income to the government and 'hope' they come up with something that works why don't you just give that money to your friends who couldn't afford health care? Do you think healthcare will be free if the government runs it? I mean money doesn't come out of nothing, market economy determins the true cost of something, even if the government runs healthcare, it will cost even more due to government inefficiency and this comes out of your tax which will be much much higher than what you pay now. It is a wealth redistribute scheme with a high waste. If you want to redistribute your wealth just give your money to the homeless people, and if you care about it enough then start a charity group, collect money from your other friends who care about those issues. Just because you want to give away half of your money away doesn't mean you should therefore force every middle class citizen in your country to give away half of their income as well. You could and didn't support hurricane victims because your government is so inefficient and yet you want them to run health care system, why do you have so much blind trust in big government

@peststudio I think you are missing a few points but forget a big one you keep making. Inefficient government. Not the system itself, but those running it. Crappy leaders making crappy choices. Trump decided not to help hurricane victims. But private donations poured in from all over the country. You are completely overlooking that. Thing is, private citizens don't have the influence and resources the government does.
There are plenty of immigrants and natives in this country working hard, with and without assistance.
Student debt is second to home debt. It doesn't need to be that way.
I also believe I said we could improve on the systems that are already doing well. I never suggested repeating their mistakes.
It feels like you have some anger or resentment toward assistance programs, and it's misplaced. Your reasons against them are about the people who control them, which is fair. What's not fair is blaming the program for the leaders who fail to run it.

@Jess2zz there's no incentive for the government to run anything well you miss this big point. There are a lot of charity programs that make a difference, I don't understand what's stopping you from giving your money to the homeless person you see on the street, instead you want to give your money to the government let them take a chunk out of it then give what's left to that same homeless person? And now you are making assumptions about me? Why do I have anger about welfare system I'm just pointing out problems with it, and if you don't want a second opinion because you already believe in what you believe in so be it

@peststudio I said it "feels like you have anger", not that you do. You made a lot of assumptions about how this system works that are completely inaccurate. You also overlooked the part about government resources. They have a medical cruiser ship, that can treat thousands at once. Access to aircraft, food, medical supplies, satellite surveillance, you name it. Private citizens can supply whatever they can afford, but without any of those resources. 5 years ago, this would have been a very different story, but we had very different leadership. Who's in charge makes a huge difference in any system, including ours.
Thing is, this is a huge country, with complicated city, state, and federal powers. In the one example you seem interested in, supplying help to an island with minimal power, what would you like private citizens to do? We pay taxes to maintain the welfare/well-being of the country. We did for Texas and Florida and fell well short on P.R. so why can't civilians do more? It's an island, for one. In a disaster state, how would Good Samaritans get there? How would they know where to go, who to help? Reach them safely? Apply first aid and long term medical care? What about new infrastructure? Electrical grids? Temporary housing? Are we supposed to run all of that out of private donations....still lacking the resources of the federal gov't?
I'm not against the idea of trimming wasteful govt spending or eliminating positions that are unnecessary. I am against the idea of throwing my hands up and having to crowd source every issue that comes up, because people can't be bothered to learn about how government works nor take responsibility for who is chosen to run it.

If you are really interested go read a book called how your Facebook friends are wrong about healthcare, answers all your questions

I hadn't seen that film, I'll have to look into it.
I guess I'm more baffled by the fact that we have the models for the desired results and as a country, we keep moving in the opposite direction. The cognitive dissonance in this country is astounding.

@Jess2zz I would highly recommend the movie. Imho, what we are seeing now is a desperate attempt by regressives to hold onto a familiar and more comfortable "way of life." I truly believe that they perceive this as a struggle for their (diminishing) culture, and they'll do whatever it takes to preserve it.

@Condor5 speaking of their "diminishing culture", what is their culture? I never could figure it out. They act like they prize their European roots and backgrounds, while claiming American exceptionalism. The "American culture", to me, isn't all that clearly defined.
Many have only been on this land for 2 or 3 generations and are telling those who have been been here several more to "go back to wherever they came from".
I'm with you on the "way of life" thing. I just don't know that they see their way of life the way I do.

@Jess2zz yeah, that's one of the great ironies, "diminishing culture," my ass. It's a culture of "rugged independence," and shoot whoever the fuck gets in your way. Diminishing culture (aka genocide) is what happened to the Native Americans/Amerinds.

@Condor5 like I said, cognitive dissonance.

I hope you're right about that wave.

I think we have everything and more needed to not only achieve the same things, but surpass it. Tons of resources, plenty of young labor, land, you name it, we got it.
As far as history, ours is short, violent, fast, and amounted to lots of power very quickly. There are great things and people in American history, but not the long, slow build that others learned from.
I'm a believer of the "When" being as important as the "What". This isn't the 1780s. We can try storming the "palace" gates and holding the powers that be accountable like France, ... But 2018 has drones and tanks, a small unit could stop an uprising. That's an extreme example, but points out why the "When" is so important. It causes obstacles all on its own.

@Jess2zz So what is the path?

@itsmedammit I think we've seen those paths. Stop dressing punishmentas as reform. Don't hurt the masses to get at a few bad examples. Prisons that make criminals instead of rehabilitating, cutting assistance because some lie on applications, letting habit and money hold back progress, belief that overrides research...all keeps us falling behind in almost every way but gun violence and military strength. Most, if not all just aren't done in those countries we admire.
Others are investing in their people, in their infrastructure, tech, education, happiness and health.

@Jess2zz I agree with all that but how do we get there?

@itsmedammit I actually got into that a bit in another post. Mostly, I think that we need to take reality as its good, bad and ugly. Talking from beliefs and gut feelings, along with religiosity and moral high grounds is pushing real factors completely out of the conversation and making us work from the basis of several different fantasy lands.

Nothing, I just didn't want to mention a whole bunch of places I'd rather be. Though, I've always had a soft spot for Ireland. Listing them just makes me sad.

Just an oversight I think, Finland too.

@Marionville Yes, that must be it!

Would you say Americans just aren't ready to drop anti tax ways to pay for not being more "Shithole" like?

@Jess2zz Not entirely, Americans are suspicious of what they term big government. They talk of socially progressive nations as though they were communist. You Americans have always taken pride in your independence from the state and value hard work and looking after yourself and your family without state handouts. This is admirable, but it does lead to big disparities between rich and poor, and unless taxation is used to rebalance this by taking more tax from the higher earners to make sure there is a safety net of welfare for those who for various reasons can’t live at a comfortable standard then the current situation won’t improve. Any party that wants to increase taxes will be unpopular, but a better calibre of politician could sell this idea if they had the vision to inspire it in the electorate.

@Marionville a great way of putting it. Oddly enough, many of the same peoplee who are suspicious of big government when it comes to taxes, aren't suspicious when it comes to civil rights or economics. I think if that suspicion was flipped, we'd be in a better position to move toward similar paths of happier, healthier countries.

@PalacinkyPDX Many of those older people do not understand what SS and Medicare are. They are social programs. They are the first ones to decry Socialism. The ignorance in this country is incredible.

@PalacinkyPDX I apologise for treading on your toes, I didn’t say all Americans thought that way. However it is undeniable that quite a lot do....like most republicans for instance, and at this minute they are the ones running things! I hope you get them out soon. I may not be as well informed as you about your country and I would certainly know that but I do take an interest with the information available and can take an informed view. I would welcome your input into UK matters including Brexit if you wish to put forward any opinions.

@PalacinkyPDX I understand that and I will be careful in future not to make such generalities, I bow to your superior knowledge.