According to Episcopal Bishop John Shelby Spong as well as Theologian Marcus Borg and others, the Apostle Paul was a self loathing homo sexual. There are many well read ex-Christians on this site. I was wondering if anyone had an opinion on this, as well as the topic of Jesus' sexual orientation.
Paul, as a historical figure and a Roman, probably engaged in same-sex encounters, and was likely submissive and ashamed about being submissive, thus the reason it wasn't addressed in his letters. It wasn't socially taboo at the time, so why even mention it? Again, this is only conjecture on my part. No, I don't have proof or any specific verses to quote, but I feel that it does explain his attitude toward sex and how it should only be in a committed marriage, etc.
That brings us to Jesus. Paul never mentioned a physical, living Jesus.The gospels were written after Paul's letters and were certainly influenced by them to a certain extent, as they tried to graft a historical god-man onto the mystical spirituality that Paul preached about. Jesus was definitely into other men. Why, on the night of his betrayal were twelve men in a garden after dark in nothing but loincloths? Why was there mention elsewhere about the man that Jesus loved written in such a context that this was more specific than merely a platonic thing? THE man? IThere's no proof, because the Council of Nicea sought to start regulating such things.
There was also a sect of Christianity, The Carpocratians, early on that viewed pederasty as a virtue. It is mentioned in passing in a few Roman texts, and I forget which ones, but at one time a version of the book of Mark existed that had some things in it that were not popular. The missing part makes the version that exists today in the New Testament seem to jump suddenly at one point. It has been years since I studied all of this. Perhaps it is time to brush up a bit. It is interesting and also damning that the clergy of the Roman Catholic Church still seems to secretly (or not so secretly) practice some of the Carpocratian values and ideas.
I believe Paul's upbringing in Tarsus (Stoic Philosophy School location) along with his Jewish education brought about his feelings of guilt. I am studying to become a Post Modern Minister and part of my job will be to offer spiritual comfort and guidance to L.G.B.T.Q people who were or are damaged by their previous church affiliation. I'm just collecting info here.
@UnityBrad You might find this an interesting read: [bidstrup.com]
I really can't understand the argument about a persons sexuality especially if said person is imaginary anyway .
Paul's letters have had an enormous effect on western society. I think if they were read with a more critical lens it would save many people a lot of emotional torment. As far as Jesus I would agree that the Jesus of the Gospels is mostly (at least) allegorical. I posted this as an educational exercise. Eventually I will be a New Thought Minister and a big part of that job is to help homosexual victims of Traditional Christian theology.
First what must be understood while the Jewish law forbade men from having sex with men that is all that the word that is translated to homosexual ment. It had nothing to do with a person's identity.
In the Roman society of the time it was not possible to be homosexual or lesbian as the idea of sexual identity did not exist in that culture. People were simply sexual. That is they recognized they had sexual needs and desires. They often fulfilled those wishes (I'm primary speaking of the Romans, but at least Jews despite their laws did also) however they wished. There was no stigma or orientation even considered.
The only time anyone was made fun of is if they were in a position of power and thought to have been submissive. As much sex was about dominance not orientation.
In the non canonical gospels there is some hint that their may have been unusually close relationships with Jesus. This is projecting our speculation and sexual stereotypes into the past out of context. We really can not call someone gay when at the time sexual identity as we understand it did not exist. So even if they were having hard core porno sex they may have just been having sex without any thought of sexuality or gender.
Would we be better reverting to Roman attitudes to gender neutral and un orientated persons? If people were blind to it, there would be no adverse discrimination. Dom or sub it sounds like they were focussed on pleasure.
When was the earliest law about homosexuality for men in Jewish culture/religion? Did they have a mirroring law for women/lesbians?
I voted no way to know. Paul spoke of homosexuality as being unnatural and sinful, but I don't see anything (except perhaps his celibacy) to indicate he was a self-hating homosexual. Jesus is even more of a mystery. If Jesus had an opinion one way or the other on the moral status of homosexuality it is lost to history, although some see in the story of his healing of the centurion's servant a strong hint that he had no problem with it. The argument goes like this: centurions often had young men as their lovers, and this, they believe, was the case here. I think such an interpretation is indeed plausible, although it's by no means the only way someone could see this relationship.
Well, who knows? However, there is that little-known Dead Sea Scroll, the one with the badly-damaged text which some scholars have suggested may translate as "He did look fabulous on the dancefloor, giving it some to Abba and the Pet Shop Boys, which caught the eye of a couple of Nubian leatherboys who enticed Him into the backroom."
That's awesome.
trying to define an sexual inclination to an supposed son of god, is like asking if Pinocchio was gay , ITS FUCKING IRRELEVANT
Hahahahahahaahahahahaaaahahaha, too good.
If the son of God was gay that's pretty relevant. I think Son of God was just a term of respect though, not literal.
Psychologically, if Paul was a self-loathing homosexual, he probably would have talked about it and condemned it much, much more than he actually does. Preachers tend to focus the most on the traits they hate about themselves.
(And not all of "Paul's letters" were actually from Paul... so that always has to be factored in, as well).
Depending on which letters are accepted, Paul's singleness and ability to control himself sexually are points of pride for him, not shame. See 1 Corinthians 7:1-9, with this concluding remark: "So I say to those who aren’t married and to widows—it’s better to stay unmarried, just as I am. 9But if they can’t control themselves, they should go ahead and marry. It’s better to marry than to burn with lust." Verses 32-38 are also relevant.
Oh, burn!!! (On the first part). Very good arguments, you win.