I would concede that Obama and the Democrats did not fight nearly enough and gave up too much (not the least of which was the cost control in Obamacare that could have made it work).

I too really liked Warren....but only until she backed Hillery. I then left the Democratic Party. I was always an Independent anyways.

@Reignmond Yeah it seems as much as a working taxpayer wants to support the Dems, they disappoint. Reminds me of Lucy, Charlie Brown & the football. Sad.

I understand your frustration with Obama. Especially when there was the perception that we also had control of the House and Senate.Thing is a lot of Dems are actually controlled by weird religious and economic beliefs like the RepubliCONS.
2nd. I believe Obama also feels strongly that it's not just wining that counts, but also how you win.
Truth, honor and respectful differences matter. It has been no match for the evil the RepubliCONs are willing to embrace but this too can change. The RepubliCONS are trying to control the people with a dumbed down education system. Economics that keep the dumb poor.
To fight this we need charismatic, smart leaders.
Bernie and Elizabeth are not charismatic. They are not great speakers. There intentions are good and make good team players but IMHO we need more Obama types.

@twill I actually am pushing for major changes to a system of Democracy (please don't harp that it is a Republic...the later is a species of the former). One of the things I want is the elimination of all Political Parties, and elections to be held by a process of elimination (like playoffs). Parties enable the consolidation of influence and power that promotes corruption. They also truncate the selection of means by which we may try to solve our problems. Parties were a necessity in the pre-21st century, but now they are a detriment.

@Duago Yes if Dems were on the other side of religious issue, then churches woudl be paying some taxes, and the rest of us would not be funding their wars

Right on!

I left the Democratic Party when they forced Hillary as a candidate. I am now aligned with the Progressive Independents.

@Reignmond

Bernie Sanders voters helped Trump win in 2016. Here's proof:

[newsweek.com]

[npr.org]

That certainly has potential. I read an article a few weeks ago about Trump being concerned about Biden. However, Joe is 75 years old now.

@balou joes in pretty good shape. Bet he could run circles around 45.

How is Bernie too far behind? He’s been the most popular politician for the past two years in all of Congress. Hell, he started the Democratic primary with 4% favorability and won almost half the votes.

@Marz I didn't say behind, I said left. Concerning the general population of the United States he is deemed too far leftist/socialist/communistic to be electable by the general population. IMHO

@Marz Would I vote for him if he was the nominee, hell yes.

@starwatcher-al according to mainstream media he's too far leftist. Every policy he defends has majority support. If he's left, then so is the majority.

@Marz Right , the majority is getting lefter (?) all the time

@JustLynnie I don't know about that. There are far too many people who grew up in the 50s and 60s and were absolutely brainwashed about the evils of socialism! It would take years of education to get past that. And, as much as I like and respect Bernie...I don't think he can win.

@JustLynnie Not all of them....but, SOME OF US are!

@hankcalifornia That's a point, if we could get rid of the two crazies.

That's a good point because Obama basically came out of nowhere. However, he gave a great keynote speech at the 2004 DNC. He looks like a baby here:

@balou "We hold these truths to be self evident, that all men are created equal, that we are are endowed by their creator with certain inalienable rights, that among these are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness................"
This is the reason I became a citizen. This is where my affection for America lies. To my mind this alone, inspires commitment.
Sadly it seems that those who do believe in the 'creator' have forgotten this.

'........but when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same object evinces a design to reduce them under DESPOTISM, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such a government, and to provide new guards for their future security."

It seems that neither of these statements are in play today. ?

No kidding. But, I provided a list of likely candidates.

Maybe one day, who knows?

He’s running for senate in Texas.. we need him to kick Cruz’s ass.

@Green_eyes yes we do!!!

@MichelleGar1, @Green_eyes Absolutely! Beto has my vote!

@balou mine too!

Beto would make a great VP choice for someone in 2020 if he loses a squeaker to Cruz in Nov.

@Alvingo1 that's true!

It will be here before you know it, all of the debates, etc.

@balou yeah I hope they don't pull the same b*** they did last time around.

Tulsi Gabbard?

I’d vote for Bernie’s corpse over Kennedy.

@jorj While I am concerned about the level corruption among many long established Politicians, inexperience can be every bit as bad and is likely to lead to corruption.

Plus, the most crucial deciding factor for me is history. I don't care what a politician says, I look at their history! What they have done in the past, is what they will do in the future!

@jorj I was gonna say shit show - maybe I should have stuck with my first thought...

@jorj monkey directed at a black person is racist. Monkey show to describe the circus happening in our government is spot on.
Hypocracy and double standards is electing a draft dodging, pussy grabbing idiot and calling him a lover of the military & christian.

@jorj Ah, you prefer to throw away your vote instead. I mean, why bare responsibility for your actions. You are taking the cowards way out.

@jorj there is a difference between following blindly and actually researching the candidates. Did you actually research HRC? Or did you believe the lies the repubs have been spreading since 1970ish?
Writing in a candidate is the worse thing you can do. It is literally throwing away your vote. Talk about a two year old throwing a temper tantrum. If there is a 3rd candidate on the ballot & they have some sort of possibility of winning, by all means vote for them. But in 2016 Jill Stein had zero chance of winning - in that case the vote was wasted. She did not even have a good platform - so please don't talk about democrats having weak political stances.

@jorj also educated and informed people understand the difference (as I stated previously) between directing a comment toward a person and directing a comment toward circumstances happening vs, as you did, making everything about race.
You talk about shaming but darned if you aren't real good at passing an awful lot of judgement and justifying it by calling yourself an independent.

@jorj do you not realize you also lose? And for every bad thing the republicans do, the consequences also affect you?
Why is it so important for you to claim independent when the results are disastrous for the whole country? Why do you not vote for the candidate who will come closest to your ideal even if that is not perfect but has a chance of winning instead of voting your party line or throwing away your vote by writing someone in?
Btw- you are not winning.... smdh.

@jorj if you chose to throw away a vote on a candidate that can not conceivably win, you have effectively not voted. You took the cowards way out, by participating while not actually participating.

@jorj I don't care if you vote 3rd party but you seem to think voting for Jill Stein was a better choice. That is just crazy. I will take an elite who at least has some knowledge & has actually worked in government over a non-platform fool. She had no position, no knowledge (as the current idiot in chief) of how our government actually works - crap she had never even won an election, for anything. Voting for someone like that is wasting your vote. Choosing the best of 2 in a bad situation (if you felt that way) is better than Jill Stein.

@jorj wow! Stein has never done a single thing. Not one single thing. She can spout being a liberal until she is blue in the face but until she actually gets elected and works on a committee which actually passes a bill she is nothing, spouting nothing. What you fail to know is I actually liked Stein when she first through her hat in the game. Then I researched. She could not even win an election at the local level....
You can continue to dig in and fight against everything just because you don't like the 2 main parties or you could open your eyes to all the AMAZING people running right now - mostly as Democrats. You could spend your energy working with & for them. Get them elected for the change you feel we need.
And if you think Democrats & republicans create the same policies which are hurting you, you better learn to research. Hint - 40 hour work week, unions, social security, epa.........
Back to losing - do you honestly believe the republicans are concerned about your health and safety - I will repeat EPA.

@jorj you are the one who continues to discuss everything but what the original topic of this thread is/was. If you cannot see the AMAZING, yes amazing group of Democrats who are running - yes, you might be all those things you sarcastically called yourself.
Not one person in your green party has a chance - for the most part they have no platform. Why are you so against the candidates who want change, want a better, non old guard Democrat party? Why are you not willing to look at ALL who are running and actually choose the best candidate vs just voting for anyone who is not Republican or Democrat or writing in Mickey Mouse?

@jorj you have continually knocked the dems yet even in this comment you stated 'a rookie getting elected either has to fall in line and play ball or they will never get a seat at the table' and you think a green party rep will get anywhere? ... that is not logical. My point all along has been new blood - go up and read my original comment. A new, different party is not the way to go. WE need to fix this. WE do that by voting and making smart choices when we are in the booth. A smart choice is one who is the closest to our ideal that has a chance of actually getting elected. They may not be perfect but slightly imperfect elected officials are better than what we get when people get mad when their candidate did not get the votes. Which is exactly what happened with many who wanted Bernie - it wasn't that they were unhappy with Democrats they were mad that their guy lost. And he did lose - Hillary got the votes and that is what counted in the primary. Did the DNC make a mess of things? Absolutely. What do we do to fix that? Throw our hands up?, not vote?, right in Mickey Mouse?, vote where the person has zero chance?, or do we dig our heels in and make effective changes? I say the latter. I say we give Tom Perez a chance - if he behaves as Schultz did we fix it and continue to fix it until we find someone who is going to do the best for the Democrats. ALL Democrats.
You keep saying you are no better off whether it is a repub or a Democrat yet that is not true. If you only look at the environment you will know they are not treating you (your kids, your grandkids) the same.
The biggest problem with the Democrats is they play nice when they have power which is why we have many of the problems you have brought up. No one is perfect, no group is perfect we can only strive for that and we do that by voting smart every election - not just presidential but we start at the local level. When we make our local governments work for US then we move up the ladder, not the other way around.

@jorj now I am truly done with you - you would rather destroy the planet just to feed a couple of families when coal is moving out west anyway & natural gas is far cheaper! Selfish ignorance must truly be bliss. Yes I am attacking you now.
Done - good night