Do we really value free speech anymore?
Modern day people living in a liberal society would like to think that they have freedom of speech. But as many of us will understand, freedom always comes at a cost.
I have spoken in public about controversial topics like the reasons for murder, the idea of transgenders, gay marriage, reasons for war, how different races and cultures have different (and sometimes conflicting) values.
But when I do, some person usually walks up to me and whichever friend I am talking to (In a private conversation), they interrupt me mid sentence and say something like "I don't agree with what you are saying, could you stop speaking?"
This is the price. We can only think what we want to think but if we verbally express our ideas or beliefs, people will try to shut us down. For the crime of having a different opinion.
People have gone to jail just for hurting peoples feelings, a form of so called "emotional assault". Back in the old days, you would have been told to "toughen up" which is something I believe we should do.
Often we hear stories on the mainstream news of "far right" speakers or "alt-right" speakers being banned from college and university campuses. Or a violent demonstration against the speakers and listeners.
This is a big problem. Young people are being indoctrinated and led like sheep to further a political agenda that they themselves don't understand. Rather than listening to what the person says, they listen to what their friends say the speaker said.
This is an example of "Chinese whispers" gone wrong. No body should listen to what their friends say just because their friends said it. I never trust what my friends say, I think about it and research it before I come to a conclusion. But most people don't, they have this false sense of trust that begets ignorance.
So do we really have free speech? Or is free speech just an outdated idea?
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Feel free to reply to any comment by clicking the "Reply" button.The problem has been that we have had a narrowly defined parameter of allowable debate. The rise of the right in both the US, Europe and the UK has a least widened those boundaries. I cannot speak for the US so I will concentrate on the UK. Two years ago we had a referendum on brexit. One of the key issues was immigration. Prior to that there was an election gaff by the sitting PM Gordon Brown. It happened when he met a middle aged working class woman whilst campianing. She complained that migrants from the EU were taking UK jobs. Brown fobbed her off with the usual politicians no-speak and returned to his car. Unwittingly he had left his mic still on, the terms "racist" and "bigoted" were overheard. This led to three things, 1st he had to go back to the woman and give a groveling apology, 2nd he lost the election and 3rd it brought out the whole subject of immigration into the political arena, leading to the brexit referendum itself.
Let me state that i personally voted to remain but I do come from a blue collar, building trade background and I can sympathize with many of the opposing views. If you were to read any of the social media at the time of the referendum, you might have supposed that it was a slam dunk for remain. Anybody supporting a leave position was shouted down and branded as if not racist then at least xenophobic. Consequently the brexiteers kept schtum till the vote. No great debate was possible. The population of the UK narrowly voted to leave the EU mostly because whole sections of it felt disenfranchised and wanted to be heard.
I may disagree with your views but I will defend to the death your right to express them. Forgive me if I have misquoted that but I would go further. In a democracy I have a right to be offended. If nothing offended me then that in of itself would be an offence! Society changes, moral boundaries move. We cannot expect to have a progressive society without the opportunity for progress and that means hearing stuff that you don`t like.
I was listening to Richard Dawkins on the radio a while back and this christian woman said that homosexuality was a lifestyle choice. Dawkins replied "well the the great thing about a statement like that is that you can just dismiss it " . The guy in charge of the debate said " but she has a right to say it? " Then Dawkins said " Of course she has a right to say it but she`s wrong so we can dismiss it ".
273kelvin
Level 8
Feb 17, 2018
0
To be honest, the world is a very big grey area. What we perceive to be "right" one moment can be proven "false" the next.
I agree with you that we should all be entitled to our opinions be they right or wrong. But there are some people who don't want others to have their opinions at all, that was my main worry.
My friends and I have many different moral, ethical and political opinions that vastly differ. We argue about them all the time and sometimes we change each other's minds. In that case, we usually concede the point and move on. If we can't agree then we just drop the topic and just hang out as friends.
I just don't see why everyone else can't do that. I agree people should be able to voice their opinions and protest in public. But why should they block roads and damage statues or property. I really hated the tearing down of statues in the US. Because although I may not like them (I personally don't have an opinion on them) I would be heartbroken to see a statue that an artisan spend countless hours working on and crafting. Be torn down and smashed to pieces just because some bratty ignorant emotional children felt offended. All that money, all those hours of careful work, something that a person who made it took a part of their life to create was destroyed.
We can't change history, but we can change the future. What kind of future are we going to have if we keep tearing down and destroying the historical monuments that remind us of the crimes of the past? Those who do not learn from history are destined to repeat it.
@Lancer The destruction of property/symbols is mute point a few years ago I fell out with a friend of mine over a news story. Two young men of 17 years of age in northern Ireland took a video of themselves burning a poppy.# They then posted it on FB. Subsequently they were charged/prosecuted with committing a hate crime and received 3 months in jail. My point was that whilst I in no way condoned their actions, I would have welcomed the opportunity to debate it with them. I may have told them of Messine ridge which claimed the lives of Thousands of Connaught rangers on one day, then thousands of Ulster Volunteer force on the next. A monument still stands with the two symbols of a shamrock and a black hand on the battles site. This opportunity was denied to me and others by a heavy handed judiciary. I also pointed out to my friend that given the history of NI, this could be viewed as political protest and as such should not be censored. The irony of this debate was that my friend came from East Germany and was 12 when it ceased to exist. She had witnessed many statues and symbols destroyed.
(For our american cousins the poppy is a paper replica sold to commemorate armistice day on Nov 11 each year. All proceeds go to the Royal British Legion who use the money to help veterans and their families. It is referenced in the Beatles song " Penny Lane Behind the shelter in the middle of the roundabout
The pretty nurse is selling poppies from a tray " )
@273kelvin Fair enough.
Personally I choose not to be offended easily because it just causes unnecessary stress to myself. I just live and let live. If somebody want's to believe, do or say something different to me then I let them. I don't try to stop them.
But I do try to understand them. I used to be a person who saw the world as "black and white" but now I realize it is a big grey area. Full to the brim with hypocrisy and ignorance. I try to learn as much as I can to reduce my ignorance but I can't learn everything and we all learn different things that form our opinions.
I know that the English have tried to wipe out the Irish for hundreds of years through ethnic cleansing and slavery. So I understand this. The English also did some snobby things to my people who voted for freedom and succession but we were denied our right as humans to live as we wished. For that I can never forgive them.
But at the end of the day I am powerless.
Personally I disagree with the idea of "hate crime" because it opens the gate for "he said she said" type debates on what a "hate crime" really is. I'm half chinese, people have called me chinky, asian face, small eyes, chink, monkey, dog, yellow, etc. I never really cared because I didn't want to be a victim, I just got better grades than them in school and avoided them. I helped people around me so that I could change they way they saw me. I assimilated and understood the people of Australia and became a true Australian myself.
To this day I've never been racist. I've said some stereotypical jokes but I've never insulted or abused a person for the way they looked, spoke or lived. I celebrate diversity but I also acknowledge that there are certain people who do not share my sentiment of "judge the individual for their actions, not the whole race".
@Trajan61 Or guys who use family connections to get a safe place in the national guard (G. W.) Then send everyone off to war on a lie.
Those that would dodge the draft then mock a veteran because he had the misfortune to be shot down and captured. Even a grieving mother because she happens to be muslim?
Just saying
@Trajan61 It was not a mistake it was a fucking LIE. To which our PM Blair was complicit and they both should be on trial in the Hague for war crimes.
She gave up her son for her and your country. What more could you ask of any American mother? Yet a man who never served at all has the gall to mock her. Is he really all there?
@Trajan61 "Shortcomings!" An idiot is someone that says things like "The trouble with the french is they have no word for entrepreneur". A criminal idiot sends hundreds to their death on a barefaced lie, that kills 1/2 million and leaves a whole region in tatters. Whilst the perpetrator of the biggest terrorist attack on his country is left at large!
If it is idiocy to want a heath care for everyone and bring your mortality rate under 3rd world levels. Try and do something about citizens being mown down in schools, churches and anywhere they might go to enjoy themselves. Oh and gets Bin Laden. Then sign me up for idiot class.
@273kelvin Seeing as your from England you need to worry about your own country as we have a lot more rights than you English. Hell you even have a screwball Muslim Mayer of London. Here in the US you have a right to have a weapon in your home and on your person for self defense. In England you don’t have that right. I’ll take the US over England any day.
@Trajan61 He is Mayer because the people of London voted for him its called democracy. You know where everyone gets to decide not just white folks who come from good christian families. There are lots of places in the land of the free that you would be able not stand as a candidate if you say your an atheist.
As for gun laws. Hows that working out for you guys? Seems like every month theres another nutcase (real ones not just Fox news opinions) gunning down your population because you guys won't put a limit on who can own a killing toy. Btw the right to life comes before liberty. You can't be free if youre dead. In England you don't need a gun because very few people own one. Laws are strict and sentences severe on possession. Consequently only high level drug dealers have them and tend to just use them on rivals. Therefore all that I have ever needed to defend myself is my 2 fists and good manners. I could buy a gun if I wanted to. It would not be legal but neither is the pot I smoke. Do I want one? no. Do I need one? no. You think you need one because everyone else has one and you think thats a better way to live. Then you call Obama an idiot. Talk about pot calling kettles.
Anyway must dash theres a poker tournament online Im gonna play in. Would you like to join me? Oh sorry youre not allowed to.
bye
@273kelvin Shootings are well publicized by the liberal media but your chances of being shot by a mass shooter here is less than being struck by lightning. Only the idiotic liberals worry about them. I read of an Englishman who shot an intruder who broke into his house and is in more trouble than the person who broke in just because he had a gun and defended himself. As I said before I’ll take the US over England anytime on gun rights.
@Trajan61 If you had read further and deeper you would have discovered that not only was the gun illegal but he shot the guy in the back as he was trying to escape.
USA gun facts, 1/2 a million crimes using firearms.
124,760 are shot in murders, assaults, suicides & suicide attempts, unintentional shootings, or by police intervention.
35,141 people die from gun violence
12,246 murdered
21,637 die from suicide
500 killed unintentionally
479 killed by legal intervention
279 die but intent was unknown
497 women killed by husband or male dating partner
89,620 people survive gun injuries:
66,673 injured in an attack
3,926 survive a suicide attempt
17,737 shot unintentionally
1,284 people are shot by legal intervention
2,737 kids die from gun violence:
1,606 murdered
958 die from suicide
110 killed unintentionally
26 killed by legal intervention
36 die but intent was unknown
14,470 kids survive gun injuries:
11,386 injured in an attack
278 survive a suicide attempt
2,732 shot unintentionally
74 shot in a legal intervention
Okay you can say the suicides may have happened anyway but if you take pills, slit your wrists etc there is a strong possibility you will survive and change your mind. Swallowing a barrel is quick,easy and permanent. You don't have to go out and find a tall building.
Whilst mass shooting only make up 2% of deaths. As you can see the big picture is much worse.. 35,760 is 5x 9/11 each year.
I can go out at 2am to my local liquor store and not feel threatened by some crack head with a gun. I call that freedom
@273kelvin Suicides shouldn’t even be counted as we humans should have the right to end their life if we are terminally ill and have no hope for a quality of life. Everyone I’ve ever known who committed suicide has some kind of terminal illness. Break ins are a lot more common in England and Australia where the criminals have less fear of retribution.
@Trajan61 Your right to a degree but suicides should only be counted as a fraction. Not all are terminally ill. I have known 2 that were not and countless attempts.
As for break ins Yes I have been robbed but it was done whilst I was out as most are. I also have known 2 where the occupants were in and threatened. The perpetrators were caught and sentenced. Plus the victims lived to tell the tale. Albeit behind greater security. If it had been in your country the thieves would most definitely been armed and who knows what might have happened? Btw neither of the victims had any desire to buy a gun afterward.
Is opposing an alt right speaker in itself free speech? IMO speech that is demeaning to others is not free speech, it's hate speech - a huge difference, so care should be given to characterizing speech. Another thing that disturbs me is one sided speech - this is not free speech either. It really pisses me off, when they don't allow people who disagree with publically funded political campaigns or government hearings. This obstruction of free speech may well usher in Fascism.
jeffy
Level 7
Jan 30, 2018
0
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