You need to steep yourself in a culture where what you say is just "rude" happens repeatedly over your lifetime.And what you mentioned as just rude is just a minor tip of the iceberg.THink about having to wonder if someone is just kidding or if it is a serious threat all your life.Rape culture is not a myth. I understand you were upset on other threads about misandrist comments (wonder woman thread) I couldnt find it again and wanted to talk to you about it. SPeaking as someone maybe twice your age that has lived in this culture and tried to treat the wounds of it I see you have a lot to learn.,

I’m uncertain that harassment has a clear definition but, otherwise, I agree. Men now must tread carefully in order to avoid genuine and untrue accusations alike. We have long accepted women demeaning us (like the common “idiot” tag), and most chuckle about it, but now we can’t respond without risk. Is that harassment or merely the blip in time and advantage? Personally I would NEVER travel with a female colleague and would rather be fired than do so. I also don’t like being alone with children for fear of some future accusation.

@btroje I might be young, but I've been through more than you can imagine. I don't get upset about feminism. I just disagree with the narrative based on all the evidence. I don't just look at one side, I learn both and come to an informed, accurate conclusion.

Did you know that men are actually abused more than women? Did you know that every day I go to work I have to deal with unwanted comments? How about all the women who approach me that I have no interest in. What about all those women I approach that call me a potential rapist because I am a man? Or the ones who reject me viciously just for fun? How about the fact that I was a victim of sexual, physical and mental abuse? I know what I'm talking about, I understand more than you could possibly imagine. Pardon me for saying so, but I'm just not a little bitch about it.

@jayneonacobb I would like to see the statistics that state that men are more abused than women. They may be inacurate due to bias of reporting but both sexes are sexually traumatized with females exceeding males.You are mixing individual experience with statistics. Your description of your experience is not different from what I have heard a thousand times over the years. I assure you if I presented my experience alone it would be dismissed.and no I don't think you know what you are talking about . Part of the global problem, no matter the sex of the individual,l is to deny the truth of the victim's story. Women speaking up does not cancel the truth of your experience. I have been a psychiatrist for 25 years and worked in medicine before that. Serious mental illness is one part of psychiatry For the average person and including those with serious mental illness I would say trauma would be the most common denominator, sexual trauma being a subset of that. Trauma is the bread and butter of psychiatry. It is very rare to interview someone that has not had some kind of sexual trauma

One of Freud's early works was about neurosis related to incest. He ended up playing out the perennial drama of denying the truth of the victim and siding with the current establish and recapitulated on his premise in an act of self preservation.It is so much part of the culture people can no longer see it. For you as a male to dismiss my opinion as an experienced expert is part of the systemic phenomena of the perpetration of and support of abuse. I suggest you do some reading of scientific literature and not just rely on subjective experience. I think there is a shock on society right now because all of this is welling up in a tidal wave. Some of the recent events I do not agree with. However some of the reaction at the unfairness of it is weighted in the fact that men have not been treated the same as women have and it is shocking to them. I can not look at a picture of elements of our government, all male, that complain of being discriminated against as white men and feel much compassion.
The issues are real. The ways of handling the issues have always been flawed and now are flawed in a somewhat different fashion. It is an "interesting time" we live in as the CHinese might say but hopefully things will get hashed out in a more orderly way as time progresses.
I can't figure out where to put it in here but I viewed a video tape of an atheist speaking about the toxicity /pervasiveness of religion in culture on this website. He used the analogy of asking a fish to recognize water ( or something close to it) Sexual abuse, harassment, violence, discrimination and on can be seen as the same water. We all swim in it.
On this site I have seen it exemplified on the repeated posts about how prostitution is ok. THis is the site that demands scientific thinking and objective evidence. On the first thread I saw I reacted emotionally then provided links for some articles that disagreed with the common stance on the thread. To my knowledge most people didnt read them. THe second time the topic came up I just posted links to the research. I do not recall anyone acknowledging those either. This post is too long and I am going to stop now

@AMGT I'm pretty sure I demonstrated that knowledge in referencing the Muslim tenancy to commit rape as part of their religious culture. So yes, I do know what it is. The West is not a rape culture.

@AMGT rape cul·ture
noun
a society or environment whose prevailing social attitudes have the effect of normalizing or trivializing sexual assault and abuse.
From Google.
Sounds a lot like Islam to me. Doesn't sound like the West though.
It's a made up term that doesn't accurately represent it's message. It's shocking, but inaccurate. I reject it because it's a rediculouse self defeating claim.

@AMGT I dismiss the made up term rape culture. There is no culture of rape, hence there can not be a rape culture. I've heard all the liberal feminist propaganda in those links before. That doesn't change the fact that "rape culture" doesn't exist. The very definition of the term is wrong. We have a term for those things. Harassment and assault. There is no culture based around these behaviors. They are behaviors. Rape culture perpetuates the dangerous myth that all men want to rape people. It's sexist and wrong. There is no fancy mental acrobatics that will make me believe that this anti male agenda is something worth talking about.

Perfect litmus test. I'm gonna use that one.

Beautifully said.

I call my friends pretty all the time. My two best friends are married to each other and I call her pretty in front of him constantly. He doesn't care, and she appreciates it. I've been called a sexist pig by lots of feminists who I've told the same thing to. Who do you think is really the whiny baby here?

Not all women are married. And even with that said, not all married women would be inclined to cry any aspect of abuse when an attempt of social flirtation is conducted. I have had married and or committed women grab me and or make quite forward comments towards me of a flirtatious nature. Do I label them as pigs also? Cry humiliation? Whine? I think it's quite a legitimate concern today as to how to approach a female when attraction arises for the male. I've even received some rather ugly comments and looks in recent years for holding a door open for women. Am I now to discontinue this gesture of once a gentlemanly thing to perform in society because a degree of females have determined it is some sort of disrespect? Hell, maybe I should quit opening doors for my woman then? Quit walking her to her door of our vehicles in an effort to safely get her in the vehicle first? Or place her on the outside of the sidewalk where it's more dangerous for a pedestrian. All in the name of what I consider a managed perception taking over our society. Don't get me wrong. I understand the nature of this issue and it's importance. I also understand that what we are seeing in the media is vastly an issue out of the range of most people on here which engulfs a class of people that have lived this way for centuries. Where do we as the norms of society draw the lines to avoid a managed perception being perpetrated onto us by the media in an effort I would argue are to divide us over the entitled population making the news today? The women of decades ago, centuries even, long gone who wallowed in this atmosphere to the heights of stardom and wealth today bare no negative retribution to this issue, yet today it's laid solely on the male population. And so we are labeled by society in our means to find companionship towards a potential life partnership? Yes, some go to far. Mainly those in a position of power to some degree. While the common men take the brunt of its negativity. The diversity of this issue is widely being ignored and men again are taking the brunt of it. I'm so glad to be set in this social aspect of life for the rest of my life! For fucks sake, good luck to those of you who are not.

good point

Take the following situation: A far from attractive middle aged woman turns up for work with about a dozen dark blue lovebites on her neck. She made no attempt to cover them with a scarf. The comment was made to her "was your husband hungry last night?" Note no reference to the hickeys. Sexual harrassment was then claimed which was supported by her equally incompetent and unrealistic manager. The person accused of harrassment had previously brought to the managers attention the accusers probable unfitness for work. Four years later the evidence came forth that the woman was highly depressed, on a drug that caused such bruising but no one had seen fit to protect the public from her behavior and false accusation.
In the above situation if the husband had been standing there I'm sure that additionally pertinent questions of domestic violence evidenced by the bruising and failing sexual relations would have been asked.

Then... MANY people have problems by your definition. People who do know the difference between flirting and harassment are people with common sense. But as we know, common sense isn't actually all that common. A fourth variable beyond behaviour, environment, and context is the mental well being of the accuser. No one can ever predict when a whack job will sue you because you asked her out on a date, citing sexual harassment.

It's a fucking minefield out there... Glad I'm old and happily married.

@Hominid Ahh, so the accusers are lying for personal gain. I'm sure it happens, but that's going to be an outlier. It would be so much more convenient for men if they could just sexually harass at will, yeah? Like the good 'ol days. SMH

@Hominid the whack job scenario is a whack job, and not sexual harassment. And honestly, it isn't a mine field at all, unless you are somebody that doesn't know how to behave decently (or doesn't want to!).

@MollyBell "It would be so much more convenient for men if they could just sexually harass at will, yeah? Like the good 'ol days." - If you think that's what I'm defending, then you don't have a grasp on what I'm trying to say; almost like a straw man argument, or even ad hominem.

@Rufus_Maximus - The claim is sexual harassment from the accuser - pls read my post again. If you don't think it's a minefield, you haven't been reading the headlines.

The discussion was sexual harassment, not claims of sexual harassment. Strawman yersel'!@Hominid

@Hominid I'm glad I am am wrong about you, then. Lol especially @ ad hominem. ???? ????

@Rufus_Maximus

1. "The discussion was sexual harassment, not claims of sexual harassment. Strawman yersel'!"

2. "Anybody who says they don't know the difference between harassment and normal behaviour has problems."

According to you, there are people (with problems - see #2) who would claim sexual harassment, but shouldn't - the logical inference being it's an unfounded accusation, a claim. Ergo you brought up claims of sexual harassment, not me, so careful pointing fingers.

@Hominid I was speaking from the point of view of the perpetrator, not the accuser. In situations like this it is appropriate to separate them as the accuser must demonstrate that harassment has occurred in law, and so their lack of understanding is mediated. Not so for perpetrators, who's actions cause the maximum potential harm whether understood or not.

@Rufus_Maximus I understand now where you're coming from, although your OP didn't make it all that clear, particularly your first paragraph. Good discussion though.

Nobody knows the rate but we do know that it happens. While it’s predominantly females who are assaulted it’s not exclusive and that’s important. An injustice against one is a wound to all. IMO we should use the segmented moment to address the universal outrage.

@Redcupcoffee ya I have regular counselling. I have PTSD from it it was a very long story but I keep getting better. Thank you.

@rainmanjr I agree. There is added stigma when a man is raped and it enrages me that they have to worry about someone questioning their sexuality when they had no choice in the matter

What was going on in the army you were in? I was in the TA medical corps of British army and I am glad to say was not aware of nor witnessed any serious sexual crimes. Lots of flirting, cock teasing, men chasing women but...? The navy had a tradition, it was unlucky to have women on board ships.

I'd go with asking and letting no be a definitive marker. Anything after that can be considered harassment.

I think this is going to keep getting merkier unless and until we start teaching people as young as pre-teen about these things. The younger people are when they learn it the more set in such things will be and the clearer lines between right and wrong are. When we fail to teach these things to young people, those lucky enough to be respectfully treated growing up will be too shocked to report such things. Likewise to those growing up in situations without any respect given or received. They just don't seem to know it's wrong, or care, as that's all they have ever known.

I also think others need to take more seriously when kids get more handsy with each other and drop the whole 'kids will be kids' attitude. Those kids grow up to be adults who don't let go of those behaviors unless adults take it seriously and intervene.

@AmyLF

I agree. It will take a few generations before this becomes normal. When a pendulum is "pushed" it always takes at least a few generations before it finds its center.

@Betty I think the only trouble is that with this current climate here in the states at least, the push seems to be getting harder. I am honestly concerned that the swing might be longer than just a few. Perhaps this modern social media level it might help shorten the swing. I hope so. I hope it can become a way to find that center sooner through sharing stories and proofs.

@AmyLF

The sharing of stories and proofs may help but I doubt it. If you look at the civil right movement for the black community that pendulum still has not found its center and won't for a long time to come. The #MeToo movement may have similar problems, hopefully, it won't take as long.

@Betty I guess that all depends on what you would consider helpful. This stuff doesn't get fixed by keeping it quiet. When things do become public there is always one hell of a fight to make sure investigations are had and those keeping quiet out of fear can come out with real support. Backlash is unavoidable in change, but the change is necessary if we are to really get on a completely equal field here or even find any degree of respect by the end of it. We simply can't expose the real monsters without the back and forth.

@AmyLF

I'm in total agreement with you.

By the way... Do you have any thoughts on how this will affect the sex trade? I haven't heard anything, have you?

@Betty Honestly I don't but then I haven't really had an ear to that particular grapevine for some time now so I don't know. I would think once the backswing and fall out happens we will likely find that more people will go underground again, not be so vocal, perhaps buy more videos or games or both in that area.

@AmyLF

I think you may be right.

A slap in the face or a knee in the balls does wonders. Or even just a loud "Stop rubbing me pervert!"

If I saw a dude treating a woman like that in a convenience store, I would step up and intervene.

I believe you are correct. The pendulum is shifting and there are opportunists who have and will continue to take advantage of the opportunity until the pendulum finds its middle. Once and concise definition is established and becomes commonplace flirting will no longer be a minefield.

@SACatWalker Exactly

I agree with your ultimate concern ..and maybe I’m not that into clothes, but I’ve never ‘complimented a woman on her blouse’.. because I think most realise - it’s not the blouse we find alluring. Perhaps a bit much to lose a marriage and career over, though more likely, the tip of an iceberg..

@Varn - so lesson here is: you know what you'd mean if you actually did compliment a woman on her blouse, but you can't paint every man with the same brush you paint yourself with. I've known lots of effeminate straight married men who go on about fashion and hair with other women, and no one takes it as a flirt, let alone an unwanted sexual advance.

Would you compliment your male coworker on his pretty blouse?

@Lysistrata - substitute "pretty blouse" for "cool shirt", and the answer is yes.

@Hominid Then just say, "cool shirt."

@Lysistrata I would be perfectly okay with another person, male or female, telling me my blouse is pretty. Pretty is a real word in our language. It has meaning. We use it for a million different descriptions and I think it is perfectly okay to use it to describe a blouse.

@hominid -- I think, but I'm not sure, you mean the guy was vindicated (not vilified) when the woman pulled the same stunt again, yeah?

@BlueWave - good catch, thanks.

@Lysistrata Most women I know would immediately correct me on the improper use of garment nomenclature.

It's to be expected that in any new and important movement for change that there will be opportunists that take advantage for their own reasons. There is the good, the bad, and the ugly to get through before that pendulum finds its center and that may take several generations.

@BlueWave There are lots of real words that aren't appropriate for the workplace. The word "pretty" implies a delicate attractiveness. That's the actual definition of the word. It's also its common use. Most guys would not appreciate being called pretty by another man because it implies both an inappropriate attraction on the part of the one saying it and a fragility to the one they intend to compliment.

@WishYouWereHere What are the compliments you are using? Do you call your male friend pretty?

@Lysistrata Oops! I'm sorry -- I wasn't trying to define the word 'pretty' for you.

What I meant to convey was that I would not at all be offended if a male co-worker complimented my blouse, my flannel shirt, my t-shirt, my haircut, my shoes or my glasses. I just don't get offended by what I perceive as an innocuous compliment -- whether it is made by a man or woman.

To me there is a world of difference between, "What a great outfit!" and "Damn, girl -- you should wear those jeans every day!" To the first I would reply "Oh, cool -- thanks!" To the second I would reply "Are you fucking kidding me?" The next time, I'd be in the office of the human resources.

I compliment my male bosses often -- when they are dressed up for court, have a particularly eye-catching tie, a cool casual jacket -- or even funky socks. Is that sexual harassment? I have zero attraction to any of them and would feel stifled to behave like a robot if I couldn't treat them like a human being.

@BlueWave Great, cool, that's all good. Pretty doesn't mean any of those things.

@Lysistrata Pretty, adorable, cute, etc. Choose any word you find which is typically applied only to women. If it is an innocuous compliment, I — and millions of other women — would not be offended. We don’t all have to agree on what we consider harassment or just a compliment, right?

@BlueWave I wouldn't be offended. Depending on the person who said it, I would feel insulted and uncomfortable. I'm trying to earn a living in a competitive field. I don't need a coworker talking to or about me like I'm an eight-year-old girl.

@Lysistrata Yeah, I hear you. And, you are as entitled to your boundaries for your life as anybody.

For me, I wouldn't feel insulted, uncomfortable, or like they were treating me like a child.

@Lysistrata It appears, you get it… So, there are women, and men, who would allow unwarranted personal comments, even appreciate them. Guess that does create a fine line.. and explains the reason it’s so often, if egregiously crossed or ignored ... while taken quite seriously by others…

@Varn Thanks, Varn. We've been conditioned not to get it. And you're right-- it doesn't help when other women stand up and announce that they're perfectly fine with what so many of us struggle against.

Well put. It seems to me these day people are so hyper sensitive they complain about the smallest thing. If you're a person who is "traumatized" because someone touched your ass 20 years ago, guess what? There's something wrong with you. They're called coping skills for a reason.

Only trouble is that boorish behavior can be harassing, especially when it's repeated and lengthy. Having some jerk pushing all his attention on you all night when clearly out with friends and you were clear you didn't like it and didn't want it can be terrifying. Boorish behavior seems to mostly come from insensitive louts who don't seem to realize that.

@AmyLF - but then it's pure harassment, not just being boorish. That's the important distinction @nipoleon makes. No different than a religious whack job preaching at you ALL night after you've repeatedly asked them to stop. Same thing... it's harassment.

@witchymom I believe I made it clear that I'm not very impressed.

@AmyLF You are absolutely right. There is no excuse for bad behavior and there are plenty of women who are just as " handsy " as any man. We find them just as insufferable as a woman does that from a man.
I'm not saying the Me Too movement is not a noble cause but it's heading to a bad place. Politicizing it as a political weapon is not where anyone wants to go.

BTW I didn't answer the first question. Sexual harassment in my opinion is any sexual comment, behavior that might invade the intimacy of a person physically or mentally.