Of course women can be shitty humans that's understood, but my experiences with shitty men is all I can say, you're correct we're groomed at birth to be seen not heard, find a man, get married, have kids, don't get fat, look pretty all the time,... And the lists goes on, what we're not taught is that we're women regardless being a wife and /or mother is optional, speaking of opening doors I do it for my tenants and the men freak tf out like doors are for boys lol. I helped a tenant today push his boat in his unit and he said "Gorgeous and Tough " I was like you're welcome ( like attractive women can't push damn boat) ! ????

@Wildflower Right, can we have a healthy dialogue about relationships without men getting offended, geesh

@maturin1919 disagree

@Veteran229 That's a 2 way street. HAHA. Women have ALWAYS had to conform to men and comply with their rules to appease the male.

@Veteran229, @maturin1919 Then start your own conversation on another thread. This particular thread addresses only a woman's concern.

@maturin1919, @Veteran229 Do men EVER "attempt to learn, recognize, appreciate, or even support the strengths and weaknesses of women".

@Veteran229 Oh, I'm ok with YOUR perspective. Thankfully that is not the perspective of all men. Your perspective comes from your male insecurities which cloud your thinking.

@maturin1919 It's NOT relevant to this discussion. Your whining and crying and stamping your feet about your insecurities has nothing to do with this discussion. You are just trying to hijack the discussion and make it about you. It is no wonder women have to fight so hard for a place in this world with selfish men like you taking even the smallest discussion away from them.

@Veteran229 THIS post IS about women! So glad you get it now! YAY!

@Veteran229 Blah Blah Blah. I am sorry that I replied... you are so not even worth the effort of a reply. You are so angry that you can't look beyond yourself. Good luck with that. I wish you love and happiness.

@maturin1919 No one said you did any of these things

@maturin1919 I love men. I understand that this doesn't just pertain to men. I'm saying this particular post is about women. It was meant to open a discussion about how some men treat women. And then the whole discussion gets turned around and the original meaning is lost. It's dismissive and disrespectful. If you were talking to me about a concern you have and I take that and turn it around and start talking about myself, make it about me... what does that tell you? It says that I don't care about you or your concerns, its says that I'm not listening. So, really, I do love men. I just don't like to be disrespected, by anyone. I'd bring up the same thing if it were a woman taking away my voice.

@maturin1919 Wow, all I can say is wow. I once was abused by a man like you. That was the start of my empowerment as a woman.

@maturin1919 Oh honey... I do know you, probably better than you know yourself.

@OwlInASack well said. Thank you.

I submit it marks an “insecurity” in a man when he tries to turn it around, @Wildflower. I like how the women here reclaimed the topic. Good job.

@Santanaman9 Thank you. I appreciate that very much.

@wildflower
“In that hope, and not to diminish the victimization of women, it is time to note (hold onto your hats) that men too are victimized, and that there are wars against both women and men.”

[google.com]

@OwlInASack I have not explored this on any kind of societal level, and have only drawn my conclusions from my personal experiences, which are in agreement with your statement here. This is an issue which, in and of itself, can apply to both men and women but, possibly based on the inherent gender tendencies of our species, damages women more than men.

@OwlInASack Haha! I can be such an out-of-touch little old lady sometimes! I had to google what MRA stood for.

Nothing wrong with self reflection