My state has laws against criminal threatening. He's lucky I didn't press charges. I don't think you read the entire post.

If I disapprove of institutionalized bigotry, I think I should try to remove the organization's options for practicing that bigotry. Therefore I think there are situations, albeit infrequent, where someone does have the right to interfere with behavior that is unethical.

@citronella I totally agree!

Haha!

You are wrong!! How many Muslims have you actually spoken to? Do you know that Islam means peace? How many sects are there in Islam? You are rationalizing.

No, TRUE muslims believe in peace and helping one another.

Lastly, if you were to read the Quran and study Islamic history then you would know that what you write is NONSENSE!!

@JayJackson helping one another, unless you arent that denomination, or not muslim. The koran specifically instructs muslims to lie in wait on the road for apostates and slay them. That doesn't sound peaceful to me. One of my best friends is Bahi and one of my room mates is a recovering muslim.

@JayJackson As with ALL religious texts, you can justify anything with a simple interpretation of the text. No religious text is exempt from that rule. IMHO

They're WORSE. When was the last time you heard of Christians throwing gays off high buildings; or killing their daughter because she was seeing a boy who isn't Christian; stoning women who went to report a rape or who is ACCUSED of committing adultery? Or a son(s) KILLS their mother because she converted to another religion? Or mutilated young girl's genitals so she won't commit adultery later on? Or cuts a boy's hand off because he shoplifters? All of these acts have been committed by Muslims, not by Christians. True, we've not had a very good record throughout the centuries, but our laws are more merciful today. At least we're trying.

@JayJackson but if you read the Hagith, you'll find much more violent rhetoric against nonbelievers! There are other books that fundamental Muslims study -the words of famous imams.

I have four friends who came here to live and to ESCAPE Sharia law. They're scared to death that an abandoned husband or angry relative will come to this country (USA) and kill them to save the family honor!

@Lewellyn3 when was the last time you heard of a muslim cleric molesting kids? When was the last time you heard of a muslim cleric raping little girls by sending them off to be married to men that are old enough to be their grandfathers.

You wrote that your so called friends are scared, have you seen or heard of survivors of religious cults? Most are Christian based. When was the last time have you seen a Muslim site here in America beseiged like in Waco. NEVER!!

@Lewellyn3 In Certain Christian countries it was illegal to get a divorce or an abortion. Women were dying. In Christian Uganda homosexuals are being killed and our religious right are supporting this action. Who are you referring to when you write that we are trying? Brownback of Kansas has rolled back many rights in the name of religion. Most Christian states have made it darn near impossible for the poor to get abortions and adequate pre natal care from planned parenthood. So who are you referring to?

When it comes to rhetoric, have you read the old testament? Modern day imams such as the iman of Egypt and the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem have come out against violence of any sort. If a fringe element chooses to ignore their leaders then they should be held accountable, not the WHOLE RELIGION. Its simple to me. Christians in Sierra leone and The C.A.R were cutting folks hands off to stop them from voting. Joseph kony of the lords resistance army still uses child soldiers to murder and rape. Are you holding ALL CHRISTIANS ACCOUNTABLE? I think not. In Latin American and in certain parts of central and North American, rhetoric spouted by the Catholic church has lead to children born into dismal poverty. Children starving to death or put on the streets to prostitue themselves. You wrote that "we are doing better" who is this "we". Go to San Jose, Costa Rica. Go to Panama City, Panama. Sixty minutes and Reuters did an expose on how GROWN, PROFESSIONALS males go to these countries as well as South east asia for the sole purpose of having sex with underage boys and girls. So, once more, who is this "we" you write of?

@JayJackson Ultimately, so what? The site is for atheists and agnostics. As far as the bulk of us are concerned "both your horses have jaundice". Christian, Muslim, Jewish, Hindu,whatever. They all contain similar quantities of wrong. I.E. near enough to 100%. An argument that christian priests molest kids is "so what? Did you expect better?" just as an argument that islamic folks toss poofs from high places is "so what? Did you expect better?" It's ALL god-bothering. Give me Sam Harris's neuroscientific basis for ethics any day.

@RobAnybody So what? You don't "speak" for me or others who post to this subject. I would if i were you tend to my own thoughts and not try to be a spokeperson for others.

I was responding to anothers comment. Your input was neither helpful nor constructive.

Attacking one sect and not religion as a whole is loathsome. People have a right to post whatever they chose to but not without rebuttal.

@JayJackson I hear stories all the time of young girls as young as nine being forced to marry grown men from their 20s to over 60.

I've heard of the "bachi bazi", (translated boy play), where young boys are forced to dress and act like women as substitutes for women -that way, the men can say they've been true to their wives. Newsweek did an article about it a while back. They interviewed one of these kids who spoke of the rampant sexual abuse he endured.

These are testimonies from my friends that you accuse me of making up, lying about, I'm not sure what you imply by calling them my "so-called friends". They ARE my friends, as far as I'm concerned, but I have never accused anyone of lying on this board, so I expect others to give me the same courtesy.

I have been to several countries like you speak of, where AMERICAN men go to have sex with boys and girls. Costa Rica, Puerto Rico, Columbia, and India. When I went for my daughters in China that we adopted, our hotel was right beside a very high prices brothel, where one night they had an auction for a 10 yr old girl to lose her virginity. I've been to Haiti, where women were forced into prostitution to feed their children. I've seen child/sexual abuse more than I ever care to again.

Do I hold all Christians accountable? Of course I do; we will all answer for our actions eventually.

Who am I referring to as "we". as in we're trying to do better? My church of 500, my family, and myself. Our church is actively involved in helping immigrants to this country acclimate to their new life here; we support a home in Uganda for children who have been sexually abused and are now suffering from aids, and before adoption was banned for us there, we helped people adopt these children and bring them to the U.S. for medical treatment. I cannot control what is done overseas, but I curse it, just as I curse these priests who get away with abusing children here. I can only do what I can do.

As someone brilliantly said, "Both our horses have jaundice". and there is plenty to condemn us for. But the only way to change that is to clean up the jaundice at home. That's what "we", my church, is trying to fix what we can, as best we can.

That is all I have to say on the matter. This is an Agnostic/Atheist board, and I came her to learn about and support them, not talk about my own religion of many warts and defects.

I apologize if what I said offended or upset anyone here; that wasn't my intention.

@Lewellyn3 Your "argument" is based on something you heard? Thats amusing. Next you claim to be christian, of course. So your indoctrination has skewed your view on Islam, of course. You claimed that the Islamic religion is "WORSE" then when shown that it isnt you cloak yourself in shroud of a church and its five hundred members. If you are "christian" then you are a HYPOCRITE!! Whats the tenant of your faith? Love!! Another is not to JUDGE!! You really need to re evaluate your belief system. Next time you put those dollars in the collect plate for whatever reason, think about your community and why your church locks its doors at night.

Lastly, the bachi bazi boys of Afganistan is CULTURAL, not Islamic. Many, many clerics have spoken out and declared fatwas against such practices. Please get your facts together before posting such nonsense. In closing, were did i use the word "lying"? Maybe your conscious is bothering you. Playing the victim will nit work with me. I will use whatever verbiage i deem that fits. I would also encourage you and your so called friends and so called church to visit any E.R. or any CNP (my profession) or Doctors office and see for yourselves the RAMPANT ABUSE that women suffer from domestic violence in this country by the hands if their so call christian spouses. I know that they are religious because of the crosses and who they are by their insurance cards and living amongst them.

@JayJackson Make sure you understand the terms used in the discussion before you start a rant. Otherwise, you embarrass yourself. Eric Hofer coined the phrase "true believer" in the 1970s to denote fanatically fundementalistic ideologies of all stripes -- political and religious. The term is widely used today. I stand by my statement that "true believers"" tend to be harshly judgmental toward anyone or anything that does not fit in their dogma.

I do not expect an apology, but I would ask that you be more rational and civil in discourse.

@AxeElf Where are these killings taking place? If a fringe element is killing then they should be held accountable not the whole religion. Take a look at Uganda and go further back and look at the former Yugoslavia. The Atrocities committed by the christian sects there are abominations. No one condemns christians on the whole for those actions. Interesting and myopic to me.

@AxeElf Not true! I realized at an early age that all religions are false and moved away from the false ideology. I don't even understand what you are trying to do. Your response does not even address the legitimate points I made. You simply avoided them. Intellectually dishonest.

@JayJackson "People have a right to post whatever they chose to but not without rebuttal." Precisely. You're on an atheist site talking up a religion in relation to another religion. Neither has much to recommend it and both have a long history of atrocities which inform their believers' behaviour to this day. There MIGHT have been racist intent in the OP but a tu quoque argument in relation to a second set of untruths itself deserves rebuttal.

@RobAnybody "talking up a religion", you are confused. I havent talked up anything. I have refuted a rant and an outright lie. Furthermore you throw out this "second set of untruths", what are these set of untruths? Humor me.

Lastl, be it a site for agnostics or atheists means what? This site is an open forum. You do realize that? I will be waiting for your comment on the set of untruths.

@JayJackson Christianity being the second set of untruths which you pitted against those of Islam in your tu quoque. "In Certain Christian countries ... who is this "we" you write of?" "No one condemns christians on the whole for those actions." (yes many people do) Name of site = Agnostic.com (kind of a hint).

@RobAnybody How do you know that Christianity and Islam are these "sets of untruths"? The best that you or anyone else can do is give cogent, rational arguments to refute the tenants of those and any other faith. To write that they are WHOLLY untrue with certainty smacks of a FANATISM and Belief that is just as loathsome as what the religious zealot preaches. You also need to be aware that this site isnt a drop in the bucket when it comes to the vast majority in this country and others who spout off views that are erroneous and inflammatory. The sole purpose of these outlets are to sew dissent and hate JUST LIKE THE ORIGINAL POST.

I am well aware of individuals like the late Chris Hitchins and others who condemn religion, but I am also GREATLY AWARE of how misinformation can be used to steer folks in the wrong direction and lead to dire outcomes, our presidential election springs to mind. When you mention many, you are in fact writing of just a few. Look at topics that others have post. The pushback that they get from the VAST MAJORITY is astounding. The worlds powers and vast majority of their populations HAVE NOT and will NOT CONDEMN christian militants or hold them accountable like they hold Islamic militants. Just doesnt happen. If you read my comment in its entirety and not nit pick you would have comprehend what i was implying.

Lastly, you mentioned that both religions that, " neither has much to recommend". Another misinformed and absolutely idiotic thought. All religions and schools of thought have shown that they have increased human knowledge. While atrocities have been committed, the stability that these organization provided had allowed for progress. History bares witness to the many leaps that Islam and Christianity provided. From funding the renaissance to developing educational institutions for the poor. Your set of untruths have just been exposed.

@JayJackson, what I have HEARD has been from the Muslim refugees in my town, as well as what I saw in my travels to India. They were in the Muslim areas of Mumbai. When I saw them, at first I didn't know what they were. So, it doesn't sound cultural to me. As for my "indoctrination" against Islam, where I grew up, no other faiths were discussed. If seeing it with my own eyes is indoctrination, then so be it. You know nothing about me, nor I you. Yes, as I said in my earlier post, the Christian history is full of cruelty, hatred, hypocrisy. As for me being a hypocrime, yes I am. That is another doctrine of the Judeo- Christian faith: All are hypocrites. We're taught that it is our greatest fault and is a constant battle. So, I won't argue with you there, brother. There are many evils done here as well, in my own faith. You re right about the abuse many women in this country suffer, many children abused behind the doors of churches. And don't forget the Church using their very religion to teach certain races of men were inferior, excusing their enslavement. But not all wives aren't abused, and all churches don't abuse children, and not all Christians are racists.

As I said before, we. Christians have a lot to work on and we (the Christians I know) are trying to undo some of that.

I didn't mean to offend you. I'm puzzled, since you are Agnostic, but clearly I riled you, and I'm sorry. As for me playing the victim, I don't know where you got that. But again, what I told here was the testimony of Muslim refugees. If you wish to discuss more with me, just message me. But lets put the rest of the folk here out of their misery having to read our bickering back and forth. I'm sure we have much more in common than we disagree. Peace.

@Lewellyn3 This is tedious. You are attributing emotions to me that are false, its a classic technique. I am not "riled" nor am I upset. Yoy cannot provoke those emotions. What you have done is GROUP a whole people by the actions of a few based on so called testimony of fewer yet. Thats OUTRAGEOUS! ! Live amidst and amongst a culture before you make a judgement call. As far as others being affected by "bickering" they don't have to read these comments and I comment for my own sake and not for the pleasure or displeasure of anyone. One last note, your use of the word," bickering" speaks volumes. A debate isnt bickering, not to the open mind at least.

Lastly, I have zero desire to message you. That makes it personal and I am not interested in that avenue of communicating in the least. I have accomplished everything I set out to by my comments here. When people celebrate and encourage a falsehood like this original post it reminds me of just how far my people and others have to go to overcome idiotic xenophopic people.

NAMASTE
SALAM ALAIKUM
SHAANTI
PEACE.

@JayJackson I apologized.Youre pretty good yourself putting words in my mouth and twisting what I mean. You obviously want to perpetuate this argument, as I have tried to defuse it. And THAT is all I care to comment!

@JayJackson So what? You came into a space inhabited by "the few" and started spouting comparative religion. Of course you got the rebuttal you espouse. So what that there's few of us? We don't believe in either religion. Both are full of it. The few truths they do pronounce are common to all humanity. I will grant that historically they have prevented the dark from falling completely. That time is past. Now they hinder human advancement. AIDS in Africa, helped along by the Catholic ban on condoms. The continued subjugation of women (a thing that in solely material, not even moral, terms harms us all) helped along by the intransigence of so many Islamic sects. The list goes on, and no religion is exempt. After the fall of the Western Roman Empire Christianity, and later Islam kept learning alive. But that's like saying the coals kept the fire going when it was banked for the night. You don't rely on the coals to cook breakfast, you get new fuel and a new flame.

@RobAnybody You are truly either uninformed or uneducated. MODERN DAY RELIGIOUS. CHARITIES are doing wonderous works in the developing world. Mother Teresa and the red cross amongst numerous other groups. The red crescent and the salvation army. Your ignorance is STUNNING. Modern day colleges such as BOSTON COLLEGE and NOTRE DAME have advanced knowledge, CAIRO UNIVERSITY AS WELL as many ISLAMIC INSTITUTIONS OF LEARNING give the poor and disadvantage avenues of escaping poverty. Your lack of these truths is amazing.

Lastly, A MUSLIM COUNTRY was so profoundly progressive and current that it elected a WOMAN to lead it. BENAZIR BHUTTO. Long before most so called enlightened christian countries. You are embarrassing yourself if you think that your "comments" are rebuttals. Your comments are no moretahan xenophopic talking points that your government have spouted for generations. Nothing more.

@JayJackson And all you have are ad homs. Yes I know a good deal about their work, including the evils perpetrated by Mother Teresa. That they do this work is commendable. It does not change the fact that they believe in untruths. Nor does it excuse the viciousness with which many of those charities proselytize (the Salvation Army being a case in point) Equally your point about Benazir Bhutto merely repeats your tu quoque fallacy of equating one set of untruths with another. My talking points are mostly about your truly crap argumentation. You start from false premises, on a page devoted to rejecting those premises no less, and continue through tu quoque to this piece of largely ad hominem. At no point do you address my argument other than to assert that I am wrong (no evidence other than circular reasoning supplied).

First of all, beliefs and actions define a person. Second of all threating someone's life that you know is armed is stupid. Third you don't have to bitch about something that is being offered for sale in a free market.

@jayneonacobb I used my children as example of what people can be like if they feel threatened. They will REACT to anger in an exaggerated fashion. If I did not understand... that I cannot match my children's anger...it could and has resulted in a really bad scene. Their behaviour is not just happening with me. They are behaving like this in other places. And, surely, you must know that people living in a new culture will be edgy...because they are having to learn how to live, in a completely different way. That is called 'culture shock!' When I moved to San Francisco in the 80s, my friend there warned me about it! It was completely different to what I had ever experienced. That knowledge really helped me to adapt, because it caused me new anxieties!

@jayneonacobb my son want eat pork, because the Bible says it is bad, 'unclean!' Cultures may be different but brain development is the same. Humans all have nervous system. Anger, is a human emotion just triggered to different degrees by different issues.

@Freedompath an adult should learn the customs and laws of the place they are going before they go on vacation there. That is what is required of a good traveler.

@jayneonacobb YOU DON'T RUN THE WORLD, you need to be more flexable! And, NOTHING is perfect...not even you! Can you not see, that you are not adapting easily? That is not a character flaw, that is based on misinformation! Don't you think that you can open yourself up and allow a wider view of what is taking place around you?

@Freedompath no, i dont, but i run my business and if you threaten me, you are gone. He came into a place that he knew he could cause trouble, and he tried to. I stopped it.

It won't hold up, he's from Saudi Arabia.

@jayneonacobb the best you can hope for is one of his camels then.

Saudi is a messed up place from what i hear. Not exactly on my list of places to visit in the near future

@Lancer haha! I'm going to name him "spit"

Years ago Bakon yeast was used to give a bacon flavor. Don't know if it's still around though.

Nothing you want to eat. Xantham gum, salt, high fructose corn syrup, pepper and "other natural vegan flavors"

@jayneonacobb LOL Think I'll stick to eating the real thing.

I live in a tourist area. We get a lot of Muslim tourism here. No Muslim lives within in 50 miles of here and no one from Saudi Arabia likes America anyway. (He's Saudi and told me this.) What is he going to do? Tell his rich friends that an American was a dick to him? I doubt that will matter.

The show "Supernatural" - God is eating bacon and Dean says "So you're ok with bacon?".

Some people don't "Do Bacon" for religious reasons, I don't "Do Religion" for bacon reasons!! (Not really the only reason, but still funny.)

@RavenCT Ha ha!!! I see the #SPN family is alive and cooking (bacon) here too!! Sweet!!!
#AKF

He threatened my life, I don't care about eternal damnation. It's on camera.

True.

Dangerous, Islam is a religion and religion isnt dangerous it is an idea!! PEOPLE are dangerous and as far I am concerned I am MORE CONCERNED WITH THE LIKES OF THE KKK AND THE ARYANS. This country has it share of fanatics and NOTHING is done to curb their extremism. Are the IRISH DANGEROUS? Are the Germans? Look at the history of the troubles. By your notion, every Christian is dangerous also.

@JayJackson How much trouble have we had with the KKK in recent years? Radical Islamic’s have killed thousands and continue to do so. Black Lives Matters has been responsible for the deaths of a lot of law officers.

@Trajan61 you have been watching TOO much Fox news! I know better and I bet most people on this site know that BLM did not target any policemen! That is part of conspiracy theories...flooding the media! You can fool some of the people, all of the time...but you can't fool all of the people!