What does everybody think about Richard Carrier and his theory that Jesus was not a real historical character. The theory according to Carrier goes something like this: Philo of Alexandria, an influential Jewish philosopher popular around the AD30-40s, thought that Jesus was an angel and part of a trinity. Paul and other early Christian leaders would all have known about Philo, and they expanded upon his teachings, writing a works of historical fiction to put this angel on earth now known as the New Testament. Paul is therefore much like a Joseph Smith type character.
I recently got into a huge argument with my brother over this (he’s also an atheist) but he couldn’t wrap his head around it. Is Carrier a quack? Or is he on to something here?
The best evidence that Jesus was an actual person is found in the works of Paul. In order to deny Jesus' existence you have to argue that all Paul's letters are forgeries. And in order to do that you
have to argue that still other documents are also forgeries. The mass of forgery involved
ultimately identified becomes implausible.
Not all the traditional letters are actually Pauline. Galatians, Romans, First and Second Corinthians,
Phillipians, Philoman and First Thessalonians are Pauline. In my opinion - which is not the general one - Second Thessalonians is Pauline in the sense that whoever submitted it thought it was Paul's
letter to the Phillipians and historially it really had started out as First Thessalonians but had been
"improved" so much and so many times that it evolved into something quite different.
Jesus Christ , the magic performing one, is imaginary. There may have been an intinerant rabbi, Joshua ben Joseph wandering around saying he was messiah. They are two very different entities so I agree with Carrier. there were enough Christians who thought JC wasn't a physical being in the early days, so this seem a logical sequence of events. If one reads the bible, it certainly doesn't read like it is about a real person.
I've read books by Carrier, Doherty, Price and Ehrman and personally I have come to the conclusion that Jesus was probably much like King Arthur or Hercules, just a myth. Whether there was any real historical evidence for a living person from whom the myth decended, I doubt we'll ever know but I think not. I see every day how quickly people believe in all types of nonsensical creatures, people and events which make a perfect parallel. For centuries the majority of folks believed the earth was a circle with a great firmament over it. I favor Carrier.
Josephus, the first century Judean historian makes casual mention of Jesus. This would indicate that he was both a real person at that time and that his actions were sufficient to be noticed by historian but nothing that would indicate anything Supernatural
True, there are two references to Jesus in Josephus’ works. One is a later Christian add in, a paragraph inserted into the text interrupting a different story which picks up right after. The other references James, brother of Jesus who was called the Christ. This one I would say is 50/50 genuine. It could be another medieval scribe having fun, or it could the real deal. Hard to say. James and Jesus were both super common names.
in this, all I see is that Josephus was just repeating something he had been told about Jesus. The historian was not the witness, nor did the historian record other claims about Jesus and the actors of that day e.g. the massacre of the innocents. Someone may have beleived what he said, but that does not make it a fact.
Carrier is an excellent scholar and generally makes well supported arguments.
The truth seems to fall within the range between complete myth and story so far removed from its history as to be unrecognizable. It's pretty hard to completely disprove someone completely from so far away in history, but the problems with the factual story are enormous.
Comparing with Bart Ehrman...
I really love Ehrman. But on this question, I tend to prefer Carrier's arguments.
What it basically comes down to is this. Ehrman is a master of information about the Bible itself. I love what he knows about how the Bible came to look as it does through its various versions and translations and outright edits.
But Carrier argues from the point of a historian. His standards of evidence are different. His use of Bayes' theorem is often very useful and compelling.
I don't discuss jesus, god, devil, angels, saints, unicorns, dragons or aliens.
Why not?
@vz1980 Because there is no proof either exist. I waste my time on tangible object or viewable things.
Yes. I've read Dr. Carriers book ON The Historocity of Jesus twice. I have also chatted with him on twitter a few times. Though I do not accept that jesus was divine, I do believe he was a real man.Carrier is a mythicist. He does not accept jesus of nazareth as even ever living. After talking to and reading Dr. Ehrmans books, I was more impressed.
Who is Dr Ehrman? Would be interested to read more when I get home from work
Bart Ehrman is a biblical scholar who teaches at UNC. He is also an agnostic. @lastoftheromans
Thanks! Reading up now @vz1980
i think he was a reall character who stould out from the crowd with soome radiical ideas and got put to d death for it
Personally, he may in fact be on to something. I have read his most recent book, "On the Historicity of Jesus: Why We Might Have Reason for Doubt" and find his writing scholarly and more detailed than his talks, at least the ones I have seen. As a lecturer and wit, I prefer listening to Robert M. Price, if I'm going to entertain notions of a mythological Jesus.
It matters not one bit to me whether or not a person named Jesus existed. Even if he did exist, and caused some trouble in Judah, that hardly proves that he was a half-man, half-god who was born of a virgin, rose from the dead and ascended into heaven--that's too tall a tale for me to swallow, and keep down.
Too tall a tale for me too. However I’m not a mythicist, I just don’t buy his divinity....or anyone else for that matter.