It would be nice not to have to label people he/she/gender neutral..... (etc). Pronouns!

But - despite the learning curve I'm going to be on while we resolve all this - I will use the pronouns the person would like me to use.

Not all men are "Butch" not all lesbians are either. All stereotyping is a pain in my butt. It needs to go away.

I feel like I've spent years saying "That's not true of all "insert whatever..."".

My Dad was a real Archie Bunker type when I was growing up. He was born in 1925. He didn't know any better. By the time I was in my early 20's - he was a very different person.

One of the few things I remember challenging him on all the time (along with my siblings) was stereotypes of all kinds. And he was absolutely a product of his time and his environment. And whenever we'd do it? He would stop and think about it.

And I also remember bringing home a gay friend who's parents had just disowned him.
My Dad left us women upstairs and took him for a tour of his woodworking shop and treated him like a human being.
I don't know if I've ever been prouder of my Dad (And he was a great guy).
Also it meant the world to my friend at that time.

I choose that lifestyle. Where I keep learning and try to make people feel good about themselves when they've done nothing to warrant my disdain.

Ah, the great labels debate. I think labels are brilliant. We need them to understand ourselves. We need them to connect to people like us, and to form groups to fight for our rights. And try writing a dating profile without resorting to any labels.

There are only two instances where I see labels as being problematic. One is where someone insists on applying labels to another individual, when those labels are contrary to that person's identity. Telling someone who identifies as a woman that they're a man, for example. The other is the shaky ground of appropriation. Trans people claiming intersex. White people claiming to be minority races etc.

Without labels, communication becomes a lot more difficult and contrived. For example, with some now considering 'transsexual' offensive in trans politics, how are we supposed make the often useful distinction between someone who wants/has hormones/surgery and someone who does not? I've watched people dissect the biological basics of 'male' and 'female', demanding that we replace them with 'has penis' and 'has vagina.' While those are clinical terms rather than vulgar slang ones, I think that would be somewhat crude for everyday conversation.

This is a really complicated subject. Speaking as someone actually with a sociology educational background, I agree that labels are landmines, so to speak. They tend to make sweeping generalizations easier and, thereby, facilitate unfair judgment of individuals. BUT we can't live in society without them anymore than we can go without language. And when you find yourself on the receiving end of discrimination because of a demographic category that you are a part of, it is damn near impossible to identify the issue to other people so that you CAN tackle the problem without some kind labels being applied. We are never going to stop labeling as a behavior. All that will happen is that the labels deemed "acceptible" will keep changing, and people will continue to evolve with regard to which labels offend them and why. I guess that is part of the perils of identity politics and of political correctness. I may be offended by a label you apply to me, and in responding to defend myself, I end up applying a label to you that offends you. We are just going to have to keep calling out when we think a label misses the mark.

Rant or no rant, you're allowed to express how you feel about anything.

Sorry to introduce science here - but I am not trying to overload your brain to understand anything. Just to relate my experience as my science education developed. I think it is beneficial to everyone to understand concepts by any simplified means. Please go with science as far as you can.

To anyone interested in science first discoveries are Binary. That means just two sides to the description like haveing a switch on and off. Acid and alkali is probably the most familiar but there are dozens of them. The important stage comes when you realise that there are not only the extremes but a sliding scale between them and you need a system to describe where you are on the sliding scale. This is how the pH scale was deveised and named because it is the hydrogen ion H+ that is the controlling factor (in a water sytem).

Now I should say that I am not advocating giving gender a number which defines you. Also I do not understand human biology and phsyionomy. Just to realise the best way of looking at many things in life is through a spectrum. Sliding scale or Rainbow is the best non scientific term I can think of . Think of the developments in treatments of Autism that have meant people with mild Autism effects can be treated without labelling them in a dramatic way. Concepts in one sytem can be transferred to other areas of Human experience.

In the science field there are concepts like pH within non water systems.
Things like acidity are now so easy to control. There are ways of building in a resitance to acidty - giving the whole sytem more resilience. I only wish I could apply that concept to the gender sytem but that is asking too much at the moment.

All I am trying to do here is avoid the bigoted thinking that religious people find so easy to slip into. Science can help but only if more people make an effort to understand. My biggest hope at the moment is that more science type posters will try to make an effort to help others who have not had science education to reach not necessarily scientic knowledge of experise but to asist in getting concepts. Is that impossible?? . You say

I agree with the header. In the case of an internal quality a label should originate from the individual and not others. To believe you can understand something that is not detectable without any evidence to the contrary is hypocritical.

Agreed, people label us, to understand us to control us.
I am attracted to women, hate ALL team and competitive sport, do not drink beer,
I am from Oz, and I still hate sport and beer,
so it is not just gender, everythign is complex,
I guess we are all individuals.

TBH I think a majority of these issues stem from perception of gender roles, because we then add value based on which is preferred (which is being male.) and anything that goes against the hierarchy means you’re trying to steal power, are intrinsically weak, or don’t know your place, which is inherently wrong. As we only get one go, happiness matters. If your happiness is not at the direct expense of another’s you’re doing well.

On an aside though, I hate funeral coverage of a certain piece of shit pastor, he worked on his happiness at the direct expense of many, many people.

I agree. so many of the labels seem too rigid. For me personally I don't need them as I am not in sexual pursuit if everyone I meet. Sometimes it is more confusing than the atheist/agnosti/ignositic ad infinitum belief labeling.

Society unfortunately it is created like this, to label everything. It’s better than observing our own ...life. Observing without judging is not yet a virtue of humans.

Yes, and why do companies when you go for a new job need to know your gender?

Representation matters. Being able to see others who are similar to you in society helps people feel less alone. The boxes that are created by labeling help acheive that. It should never be about labeling someone else but being able to say who you are in the simple, straight forward way, as presented by these labels, and get acceptance makes a real difference for people in their own self image.

This often does not make sense to people who fit under the basic, historically socially acceptable labels because they have always had that affirmation, so don't have direct experience with what it is like to live without it.

I would expect a pretty high level of empathy from people on this site. While it is not the same experience, it is similar to being the only agnostic, or athiest, in a Christian family and society. The 1st time you find other non-believers can make a huge difference

I would also like people to not scream at me when I get it wrong. I never intend to hurt anyone by using the incorrect pronoun when referring to them. If I do get it wrong I would like to apologize and move on. My problem is when I do make a mistake and apologize that the person holds a grudge and won't let it go.

I work in disability claims, I've had a few claimants in the gender transformation process. I try to be sensitive to their wishes, but when I have a traditionally female name on my form I'm going to use an appropriate pronoun. And I do appologize when I mess up, and so far everyone has been cool with it. My real frustration is with doctors who try to hedge around what procedures were done. If you performed a mastectomy say that. Chest alignment surgery doesn't tell me squat. You created a vagina, that one is harder, but tell me that and I will figure out how to code it.

When I grew up you were either male or female. I know there are variations, but this is one area I really need patience and maybe some hand holding. I don't think I'm making judgements, but I don't want to navigate a mine field either. And frankly there are details I'd really rather not know, just tell me what I need to know that is PG13.

Lots of good points. Thanks for your insight, other humans,

Restating points more succinctly....

1. Don't apply a stereotype using a gender identity label.
2. Don't force me to accept your labels, let me choose them if needed.
3. Gender Identity is kinda hard, when you mess up apologize.

TL;DR

I would like to say that, although I am for the gender equality, it is psycologically true that our gender (let's keep it as simple as male and female for sake of clarity) influences how way to live our lives. It would be silly and against the nature hiding that. It's the way we are and, most of the people, perceive such a statement as discrimination. A gender-related discrimination is when you lose an opportunity because someone takes your gender as judgment policy. If someone says to me "you don't care about women's feeling because you are man", it's neither a discrimination nor the lie. It's a stereotype (probably true) built thoughout several millenia. Nothing to be scared about. Using the discrimination card at any occasion is ridiculous in my opinion.

I need a copy of "Understanding Arnie's post for dummies"

I think you are talking about Gender Stereotypes rather than Sexual Identity.

Sex and Gender are different things which are often freely interchanged (even on official documents etc.) Sex is biological whereas Gender is social.

I am Male and there is not much I can (or want) to do about that. My Gender attributes are a mixture of both as they are socially constructed. I like women (not men) sexually, I wear makeup, dresses, heels, jeans and boots. These are not sex specific. I don’t wear a bra because I don’t have boobs because I am male. Some people can’t see the difference between a dress and a bra because they have accepted the Gender norms as Sexual norms.

I often get called madame etc. and it doesn’t bother me one bit. I sometimes mistake girls for boys and vice versa. It’s no big deal unless I’m wanting to have sex with them. That mistake has only happened once

I try to accommodate people whenever possible. If you want to be called she/he/black or gorilla I will try and accommodate even if you’re not.

Let’s all just chill and enjoy life. It’s fantastic out there!

Love this.

I feel you're pain I don't identify with the A typical male pish either as I hate sports don't drink or smoke. I do swear like a trouper and am so attracted to woman. I don't bother with labels as they are far to human labels are for clothes sizes and food and drinks packages and the like.. Not for a person.

I love all people until or unless they ACT individually or en mass of a single mind, in ways that interfere with my automatic respect. Then I'll criticize and as they are entitled to their feelings, opinions, delusions etc. I am no less entitled to mine, whether personally reasoned or, though I shun it, borrowed from others as in group-think.

Gay, Lesbian and Bisexual people are among the many categories of people I personally love, respect and trust - some of them - faithfully with my life if circumstances called for it. That said, I'm not comfortable with the huge umbrella under which people claiming to be 'Transgender' gather and demand often unearned or undeserved respect.

If a person 'identifies' with the opposite sex (not to be confused with crazy mixed up gender roles in other than sexual aspects of life) and because of present day medical technology, choses to undergo a change of landscape and artificial absorption of hormonal/chemical substances enabling functional life as the opposite sex, I'M ALL FOR IT. It harms nobody and does nothing to threaten or upset the balance of society in the interests of the overwhelming number of it's inhabitants who are relatively comfortable with the way it functions.

If, however, a person wishes NOT to invest themselves in an actual, albeit limited, functional change enabling life as a member of the opposite sex, I don't agree that the overwhelming majority of others should have to accommodate or inconvenience themselves over that person's personal 'identity'. After all, if that person isn't ready to commit seriously to accomplish the change in physical terms, how is it that the public is obliged to commit serously or even take seriously their claim? A lunatic who believes him/herself to be Napoleon or Anastasia or Teddy Roosevelt might expect their 'identity' to be respected and demand behavior toward them to be modified to suit it. They are entitled to expect anything they want. That doesn't mean society should acquiesce or make rules or laws to accommodate them.

There is no such thing as a male who knows what growing up female is like, early identity notwithstanding. A woman is the culmination of that experience. The same applies to the male half of our kind. Nature sets the biological 'rules of the game'; the inviolable canon within which we, like all other creatures, live. A limited, functional alteration of a person physiologically doesn't qualify them in full as a definitive, non-limited member of an opposite sex. Therefore any laws made to facilitate and protect rights to function as such should also be limited relative only to functional, not definitive legitimacy.

Fairness and respect cut both ways. Women, in particular are the more functionally superior sex in so many ways it is absurd for males to believe ourselves to be equal or superior in the many ways Nature has gifted them. If we aren't in possession of that greater survivability and other superior functional assets possessed by females, it is laughingly delusional to expect surgical and chemical manipulation to close the gap...

So, the question for my part is how does this line of reasoning, even if some fault or other in it might be arguable, qualify as 'hate'? Where in respectfully addressed, comparative reasoning is the hatred content? Even if people get a little frustrated or annoyed over that which they just don't like but can't articulate why, it cannot be fairly defined as hate. The accusation itself is indicative of absence of ability or willingness to reason on the part of the accuser.

One person should not allow it to move them. And we're allowing our whole society and it's laws to be influenced by such counterfeit assertions?

As a fellow "sensitive" person with a penis, I relate. However, sensitive though I may be in ways, I do not read minds. People with minority gender identifications and androgynous personal appearance should not be offended if I guess wrong about their identifications. If I unwittingly offend them, sure, I'll apologize, but that doesn't give them license to fault me as some kind of bigot or to fancy themselves persecuted or deliberately misunderstood.

There's this female with a butch haircut that's one of the particularly articulate students from that shot-up Florida high school. My wife, who is very "street" compared to me, and so trusts her "gaydar" way more than I do mine, is absolutely certain she's gay (as opposed to an edgy heterosexual female defying female stereotypes, or an aspiring trans woman, or ...) and I think she probably is but am not certain. My wife is probably right (she usually is) but if I met this person in the flesh I would just treat her as a generic young person and ignore her gender unless and until she signaled in some way exactly how she wishes to be regarded. To me, all persons are neutered until they explicate their preferences. That seems the safest course. But ... that's just literal-minded and often-befuddled me.

I don't understand the goal of this post... it looks like a rant but you say ''sorry if this sounded like a rant''. So is this a question?

Anyway good that you rant, I personally think you care too much... just do whatever you want. You gotta have thick skin