LOL... I am of the viewpoint that any relationship should be equitable (equal) no matter what gender(s) are involved.

Or: Steven Yaxley-Lennon

I think this is the dark underbelly of imperialism. Immigration didn't create this problem, it highlights it. Without immigration, these patriarchal religious bullshit would fester in the third world countries. It isn't religion you know. It's poverty. It's politics. Atheists are not morally superior to the religious. We persecute and victimize others just the same, under different guises.

@AtheistReader Our lax immigration policies allow these groups within our borders. It is often a cultural issue and just like communicable diseases, lack of education and other problem areas it makes for a difficult if not impossible assimilation. We have enough issues of our (especially now) without importing more. Also, these patriarchal attitudes still fester within borders whether or not they come here. Again, we have enough patriarchal bullshit of our own and really don't need more.

I have made many comments on immigration (it's not about immigrants but policies that all, citizens and immigrants, have to live. This is a very, very complex issue and far too many are willing to use emotion instead of reason to deal with it. I agree with the part about atheists/religious. We all have our dark sides.

@JackPedigo Immigration. These groups. Diseases. Assimilation. We have enough problems on our own. We don't need more. Complex.

All sound so familiar. A little too familiar.

@JackPedigo The complexity you speak of isn't just domestic. It is a part of our foreign policies, and how we have largely supported (and continue to support) impoverisation of other nations for the benefit of the corporate interests and so-called international security. The hyper-accumulation of wealth in the hands of the few isn't simply a domestic problem; it is an international problem.

It is and isn't complex. The complexity lies in our own greed and fear, not reason.

@AtheistReader I agree and disagree and have been over this very subject several times. It is not about us and our greed as people are all the same and every bigger fish eats the smaller fish. The immigration question is the same for many developed countries and the ideas are as you have said. I lived in Germany 15 years and they are constantly trying to show the world they are not the same as before and, at the same time, Israel keeps reminding the world of what they were. Europe is having the same problems with immigration as we.The biggest problem of all is environmental. We talk about Climate Change and the sad state of the environment yet we constantly support millions of people being able to raise their carbon footprint not to mention the economic costs (don't listen to economists as they are supported by industry which wants subsidized cheap and controllable labor).

My late partner (an immigrant from Iran) once asked her 2nd graders what is more important people or dirt. All of us, immigrants and citizens alike will suffer when the system breaks down because we let our emotions rule. Immigration is complex and there are externalities I hear of every day. People don't understand this simply because the don't want to understand this as it might upset their cognitive dissonance.

We're trying

Not that much better in Australia.

@irascible Thank you

@Donotbelieve That makes my heart smile

I am not sure what you are saying...are they not being treated the same as those who would protest the teaching of the Quran by Chistian parents? It looks like they are working to stop the protests...please explain...

Here's the thing: if you are a Christian protesting the teachings of Islam, you would be an Islamophobe. But that wasn't what my comment was about. I was talking about Christians, or indeed anyone non-Muslim, being unable to criticise these new secular ideas without being categorised as politically incorrect.

@brentan That's why being an anti-theist is so helpful. It covers all of them.

what is the "good thing being done" that you are referring to?

@KKGator LOL I guess it does!

@Kafirah I'm referring to protesting teaching schoolchildren about sexual matters.

@brentan So you'd rather they remain ignorant of the existence of gays, trans, and etc. people, and therefore would form opinions in their formative years out of ignorance and indoctrination? That seems pretty fucked up and short sighted... like it could cause an entire generation of kids to struggle with understanding the world long after they have formed preconceived and misinformed and prejudiced notions about the nature of the world and the reality they live in... causing them to have to relearn painful lessons the rest of their lives. It also seems like lying to them, which is fucked up in and of itself. Also, teaching kids about gays and trans and etc. has nothing to do with sex. It's about love and it's easy to explain that Bill loves Roger the same way Daddy loves Mommy, and Kevin never felt like a boy, so Kevin became Shirley and is a woman now. Avoiding the issues can only end in ignorance.

@Kafirah Thanks for the rant. I never said that at all!

@brentan Then what were you saying? Cuz, to be honest, I was desperately hoping you didn't mean what I looked like you wrote...

@Kafirah Simply read what I wrote. Then if you want to ask a question about it, go ahead.

@brentan I've reread it five times, and I did ask what you meant, since I was obviously mistaken...but, to be clear:

"Can you please explain what you meant by your comment that protesting teaching children about the existence of gays and trans people is a good thing?"

@Kafirah I never mentioned gay or trans people. I said sexual matters. I believe that subject has no place in schools. Parents are best placed to know when and how much should be taught to their children about sexual matters. But it does raise the question (at least for me) of who has the right to teach children these days, and have they the right to teach them everything that the status quo wants them to learn? I dread to think what Muslim parents want to teach their children but I support their protest in this case because I think that, generally speaking, school is not the apporopriate place for it.

@brentan The teachers in the article are teaching that non-binary diversity exists... not sexual matters... merely that gay and trans people exist and deserve the same respect as everyone else... they aren't teaching Sex Ed to gradeschoolers. But, you raise a very good point of who should teach the children about sex and how much. Personally, I think teaching children of appropriate age the basics is necessary, especially in the US, because religious parents stigmatize everything involved with sex and teach abstinence is the only solution to teenage urges... which leads to an above average teenage pregnancy rate. If teens already know the basics, at least they will be able to make informed decisions.

@Kafirah I would have to guess what is taught in the classrooms. I think it must be a very fine line between education about sexual matters and social acceptance. My gut instinct tells me that bad behaviour should be more a disciplinary matter than a sex education matter. I'm not happy about government forcibly teaching beliefs that go against the wishes of the parents. It is effectively taking away the various beliefs of a diverse nation of people and giving one belief system to children because the status quo assumes it is correct and that the parents who disagree are wrong.

@brentan To be fair, if their (the parents) beliefs are religion-based, they are probably wrong. Especially if they are anti-science beliefs, for example, A basic education is, by design, supposed to provide an equally distributed working knowledge base. If that isn't repressive enough for the religious parents, then they are the problem. And by no means are Burka-wearing mothers a good source of working knowledge or sexual education for their children...

@Kafirah Lol I'm sure they often are wrong. I think they have the right to be wrong. The state assumes it is right but it may very well be that they are demanding the right to be wrong, taking it from the parents. What's going on in society these days are many and huge changes. They are untested so society won't know what the effects are for a few decades. It's an act of faith on the part of the powers that be. These Muslims parents have a different faith and their wishes are in danger of being ignored and a new faith taught to their children. They have my sympathy.

@brentan In the case of a student being given an assignment to learn about various religions, the parents went to court and lost. They should have lost. Belief is not taught in schools...what is taught are facts or observations and it is up to the parents to discuss them with their children. When a school does its job of presenting science or currently acceptable social norms, they are not ramming it down as something the children have to believe or even accept...it is as it is...parents have always had the last word by openly discussing with their kids how what they believe is different, even if it might be factually incorrect.

Sexual education is not about morality...it is about how human bodies work, pregnancy, development, etc. depending on age...it is about means to prevent pregnancy, not whether to have sex or not...education...parents can exempt a child from any class and alternatives provided...the basic curriculum has to met..ie. math, science, history, etc.

School is not a test of faith nor does does it purport to challenge anyone's faith...it is to teach information and help the child and parents decide how to process that information...many parents fail miserably...

@thinktwice I'm all in favour of teaching about religions. I don't think sexual matters should be taught to children. Like the Muslim parents, even though I'm an agnostic, I believe the schools will be teaching morality if they are not stopped. If the children can be exempt from attending these classes, that's something but still not right in principle. I'm no fan of totalitarian morality. School will test the faith of many students. I'll bet any Muslim parent can attest to that.

@brentan They should be given an option...perhaps limiting it to the biology of animals? Parents here are given the curriculum in advance and can opt out...the youngest in our family, about 6 years old, has watched the birth of kittens and already knows how they are made...it is more biology than sexual in nature...we will continue this type of education, some from school and some from parents...I am against teaching abstinence or promiscuity...but the underlying socially acceptable norms, including gay couples marrying, is presented and can be discussed as well.

@thinktwice I still think the parents should be directors of what their children learn and when. I'm terrified of underlying socially acceptable norms and think the diversity of various opinions argues for the parental approach.

@brentan How do you propose any type of reconciliation between factual education that is provided by schools and totally non factual based "education" of the parents choosing? One of the purposes of education is to provide a consistent base for people to exist in society as a whole. It provides historical and cultural references that allow us to converse and understand each other, which is one of the reasons diverse societies and societies with influxes of immediate immigration are struggling. I get that it is a control issue...but at what point will it be total pandemonium?

I give as an example, creationism vs. the big bang theory...do we teach both? One as a belief system and one as scientific? Do we allow parents to choose and children to be raised and put back back into society ignorant of science? I am being rhetorical here as I don't think there are any definitive answers.

@thinktwice I think parents should be allowed to teach children their faiths. What we’re talking about here is social engineering to get everyone to sing off the same hymn sheet, if you’ll excuse the expression. I’m pretty sure American education was set up to integrate all the different immigrants into one way of thinking and even though I think I can understand why they did it, fearing that pandemonium you referred to, I don’t think it went so far at the time as to try to replace the parents’ faiths with a secular state faith.

The question of creationism versus the Big Bang theory is interesting. I don’t think they are alternate ways of talking about the same thing. One is the best we know scientifically for the moment and the other is allegory to teach morality. But I have to accept that it’s fact for some. It’s history for them, not morality. Maybe this is best left for parents to control, just like sexual matters.

@brentan My preference would be that no religion is taught in any of our schools unless it is comparative religions as an elective out of pure historical/literary/social curiosity...I took that in college and became fascinated with them all at different level.

What parents teach is their business unless it is something that impacts others and potentially society as a whole...usually, religion comes to mind...I don't like it but that is not my choice...I can only speak up if any of it impacts my child...an example escapes me at the moment.

I wonder often if we overthink some of these details and worry too much...in the end, things don't always end in the worst case scenario...a very religious person I know home schooled her child to the point of not allowing her to see certain movies, read certain books, etc. She taught her christian beliefs on homosexuality, sex before marriage, etc. The daughter's social experiences were only with children also home schooled in this manner...as life would have it, the daughter is married to a woman now...leaving the parents wondering how that happened....

I doubt we will ever find a solution or way to please all...no matter what is taught at home or school, children do become their own thinkers...what they are taught probably does not matter as much as how they use the information...a Muslim child and a Christian child can co-exist when working on a mutual project to discover the cure for cancer...or go to the moon...

@brentan Virtually all studies show that th4e3 more comprehensive sex education students get, the more they make better decisions when it comes to sexual matters. Comprehensive sex education leads to lowers instances of unwante4d pregnancies and a lower instance of STDs. There is no dispute about the data from the studies which show this.

The primary reason why sex education is in the school is because parents were not doing a good job. There were actualy married couples who had noidea why they had nto had children, because nobody ever told them about sex and explaiend how children were made. Even today when sex is talked about so openly, parents are nto comfortable talkign bout sex with their kids and the kids are nto comfortable talking about sex with their parents.

If they are not taught comprehensive sex education in schools, then as most parents are nto comfortable talking sex with kids, and vice versa, you will have kids learning about sex via bathroom wall graffiti, gossip, rumor and urban myth.

@thinktwice I think that's very true. Society can try to engineer children's thoughts and so can parents but the children can always surprise them all in the end. Perhaps that revolutionary spirit in the teenage years serves a very useful purpose.

@snytiger6 I'm at a loss to know how to deal 'all studies show' and 'there is no dispute' with my understanding of a terribly poor attitude towards sexual matters. Perhaps the children know all the hows but little of the whys. No doubt a huge amount of how to have sex come from porn. Your point about adults uncomfortable with teaching their children is a good one. In this discussion, though, it's mostly about the Muslim parents who do want to teach their morality to their children.

@brentan I think his point is that gay people being around is not a morality issue but a fact...agreeing that being gay is amorale or against their belief is what they can discuss at home...I think showing a film of what exists does not make it go away or come to play...it just is...showing a Mercedes or a bicycle just is...whether to go into debt and pollute the environment is something we can teach at home...I think we all sort of digressed and mixed in a few related but not on topic discussions...that happens with thinking people...

@thinktwice Yes, gay people are a fact and always have been despite the apostle Paul's belief they were born from the worship of pagan gods. I think one issue here is how children learn facts and beliefs about people's sexuality. Then the status quo wants to teach its facts and beliefs, the Muslim parents say they are not our facts and beliefs. I wonder will they find a compromise...

@brentan They haven't in over 3,000 years...no...it will never be resolved...

@thinktwice You could be right. One of the disturbing modern trends that I think adds to the problem is liberal society's kind of self-righteousness that matches that of the religious. That kind of intractability on both sides doesn't augur well for compromise.

@brentan It scares me to come to the realization that with eyes closed, many of my liberal friends froth at the mouth as rabidly as any extremist religious group and the conservatives they vehemently disparage...I see no difference...no compromise

@thinktwice It really can smack of religious zeal. Give me those good old classic liberals any day!