The religion that I am familiar with is about getting to heaven. If that is predestined, what is the point? I have never been able to understand Calvinist thinking. Can anyone enlighten me?
The fact that the bible has verses to support arguments for both sides (Calvinism & free will) should be a BIG RED FLAG to anyone studying the bible for proof of anything.
Of course, many Christians place it in the mystery box, claiming we can't understand God's mind.
punish the wicked. the wicked are wicked because they .......................... Fu..ing stupid doctrine . probably put the west back over 100 years
Just for the record, there is NT textual support for the concept that the population of heaven is limited to 144,000. There are also text references to separating wheat from chaff and the refiner's fire. In fact, the biggest cringe I ever had at the religion of my youth, Judaism, is when the chief Sephardic rabbi of Israel, Obadiah Yosef, pronounced that the Holocaust was an example of the refiner's fire separating the gold from the base metal.
In practical terms, you will probably remember that there were signs of who was among the elect -- being successful was a big indicator. This directly led to something called "the Protestant work ethic." That was another cringe experience when I first heard about that in a 6th grade social studies book in a New York City public school.
So, basically, it's another tool for social control foisted on people.
The 144,000 thing from Revelations is typical of fear mongering, in that they take verses out of context to support their theology. A few verses later, it says that there are a number of people in heaven (under God's throne) that no man can number. (Rev. 7-4 & 9). So folks, you can use the bible to disprove their claims just by contextualizing their claims by reading a few verses before, and a few verses after. A great tool with the JWs if you want to tangle with them.
As I understand it, God has predestined things; but-- he has done so according to his foreknowledge. So, because he knew what was going to happen, he predestined it to happen. I recall asking my mom, while watching 'The Ten Commandments' as a child, why God hardened Pharaoh's so he would not let the Hebrews go. The answer given to me was that God did that because he already knew what Pharaoh was going to do...wtf? One has to be willing to totally twist their mind into a knot to think this makes any sense at all.
I absolutely didn't buy that when I was 8, and I an't imagine anyone buying it. It's a faux argument designed to allow human free will and an omniscient deity to co-exist. Doesn't work.