Stating the truth is antithetical to the right’s willingness to reason and their fear of the future, or their paranoia, takes control.

@yvilletom I am a classical liberal centrist. The "left" and the "right" are equal in their stupidities.

Democrat ≠ democrat ≠ Liberal ≠ liberal ≠ left ≠ progressive ≠ regressive ≠ alt-left ≠ radical ≠ left-pole

Republican ≠ republican ≠ Conservative ≠ conservative ≠ right ≠ trumpite ≠ extreme ≠ alt-right

really? then why are no Hindu deities worshipped in Ramakrishna Worship centers? In their centers their holy trio Ramakrishna, Vivekananda and Sarada are worshipped. Where are the gods? You said a religion must believe in and worship gods. Who is the god worshipped in Buddhism temples?? Buddha was a man, not a god. I think you should learn more about Hinduism before making such claims.

I never said Buddhism was a religion. I don't believe it meets the definition. Nor do I believe that Jainism or Taoism meet the definition.

But, as you just wrote, in Ramakrishna Worship centers their holy trio Ramakrishna, Vivekananda and Sarada are worshipped. I would contend that by worshipping these three they have elevated them to the level of deities.

@mcgeo52 they're not deities. you don't get to call them that just to make your claim. you have such tunnel-vision about what a "god" is and what worship means that you can't see the forest for the trees. dude, you have to open up a little bit and take things in.

I know, right?! What an ass. I can’t believe his replies to people who are asking genuine questions.

@Apunzelle a genuine question? please lead me to the genuine honest questions that aren't "no, you don't know what you're talking about." It's all like deno below here "well I think blah blah blah". No attempt to learn anything new, no attempt to actually understand. The entire OP is about mysticism vs. cause and most of "genuine questions" you're referencing here don't even try to comprehend the distinction. Anger on my part? That's probably a fair assessment. I've found that the only thing as close minded as a Texas Southern Baptist is a Sri Lankan Buddhist with agnostics on this site taking a close 3rd. Learn something about the subject before acting like you're an expert.

@JeffMesser I believe you’re being too closed minded and combative to notice the genuine questions. Anger is seeping through everything you say. As the Buddha would say, “Let that shit go, homie.”

As a side note, I’d turned to Buddhism in the past and found it a brilliant philosophy. However, the more I got involved in it, the more it became religion-like, with all the accompanying pomp and tradition and tenets that I had to agree with.

You’re really talking semantics and definitions that work for YOU vs. work for everyone else. If something FEELS like religion, well, if it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck ....

@Apunzelle do you understand the difference between mysticism and cause & effect?

@JeffMesser All I have to say about that is I really don’t care. And I don’t mean that in a mean and hateful way ... it’s just literally how I feel, with no anger or negativity associated with it.

We’re all on our own path and need to find what works for us. If it’s an important distinction for you, by all means, explore it and find your inner peace. I’m just saying to maybe chill with being so combative with others who have differing views. We get enough of that off this site, ya know?

@Apunzelle it's a real simple question - do you understand the difference and it's implications?

@JeffMesser Dude, really, nobody cares. You’re on the wrong site for this. We DGAF about the nuances of Hinduism or any other religion or religious-like philosophy. ‍

@Apunzelle then you're just as blinded and close-minded as the christians you purport to dislike.

@JeffMesser Mmmmm, K.

how does anything you said there make any sense vis a vis this conversation?

@JeffMesser
Before you can talk about any code of conduct, you have to prove the god it comes from is real.

@xenoview if it's a model and not considered causation then WHY would we need to prove it is real?

@JeffMesser
So it's okay to say the code comes from a god, without proof the god is real?

in eastern beliefs codes of conduct come from the vedas, not gods. the specific actions are located in the samhitas at the beginning which in the rig veda have practices going back as far as 75,000 years and the philosophy/ideas behind the actions are discussed in the upanishads or later in brahma sutras as people learn more.

why did you even bother to answer if you didnt read a thing said? make your own thread if you want a sounding board.

@JeffMesser I read it carefully...that is my reply,

@Marionville when you find a narrative that encompasses modern theoretical physics and biology and social psychology then I will give your argument the credence it deserves. As it stands the only one that does is advaita vedanta and I will stick with it.

@JeffMesser I don’t wish to argue...I just don’t agree with you on any point.

nope. not supernatural. cause and effect,

@JeffMesser So, "nope" to everything I mentioned? And, you admit we don't need them?

@nogod4me go answer your own questions. you obviously think you have some point to make then just make it.

@JeffMesser evading is characteristic of believers. My point is we don't need these "ways of lies", Oops, I mean "ways of life", whether they are religions or not.

@JeffMesser I already made the point: "My point is we don't need these "ways of lies", Oops, I mean "ways of life", whether they are religions or not."

even those little villages understand these are merely avatars. the idea of bhakti is to properly align your reality to the realities of the thing you seek.

are there those who blindly follow dogma? well sure. but that's not its' intent. It doesn't rely on faith for efficacy. thats pretty much the point.

@JeffMesser Are you saying that good might come even from blind faith?

@WilliamFleming yep. karma is created by all the things that surround the faith exhibited even if the true origins are misunderstood or even unknown. I used to think you had to understand, but you don't. I struggle to admit it's like strother martin telling paul newman that he needs to get his "mind right". the reality we create with our thoughts and our actions brings other aspects into our lives that affect us and those around us. I can show you literally dozens of avenues biologically, psychologically, socially, economically - such is the power of bhakti. For example: if you think about happiness all day long you will actually be more happy. and pleasant. and the more you do that the more happiness will occupy your base thoughts. it doesn't matter if you understand why or not. Who knows why a posi-trac read end works? it just does!

@JeffMesser Funny video.

I get what you are saying. I tend to be analytic—probably too much so for my own good sometimes. I have to try to figure everything out, but for some questions there are no answers. It just does.

@JeffMesser Eknath Easwaran, in his booklet on how to meditate recommends using the prayer of St. Francis as a mantra. I’ve never been a Catholic, and I’m not even a Christian by usual standards, yet there’s nothing in the prayer that greatly clashes with my views. I can see that it would make a great mantra, and I have in fact started using it.

I like Easwaran’s translations and interpretations very much.

@WilliamFleming you hafta be careful with easwaran's stuff. his translation of the Gita is heralded by many Hindus, but his work on the Upanishads is really biased and self-confirming. It's almost like Mueller's horribly biased translations of the vedas wherein certain views were intentionally suppressed to promote british imperialism over indian self-sufficiency. I actually started learning sanskrit myself to read isaupanishad and do my own translation because I found a completely different meaning than Eaknath. I've heard similar complaints from others. Not about his Gita translation though.

@JeffMesser I just finished his Gita version. What is your favorite translation of the Upanishads, well, other than your own? Are you going to publish your version?

@WilliamFleming me? LOL no way! Here is my new version of the upanishads ...
Jaget Mitthra
Brahman satyam
ayam atma brahma
prajnanam brahman
ayam prajnanam
aham brahmasmi

Now you know it all!!

As for the version I prefer? I would recommend reading the Vivekachudamani by Sri Shankara.

You're still missing the point in nt about cause and effdct.

@JeffMesser I am not very interested in the cause and effect issue, my only vcomments were on the isue of whether these belief systems are religions. However when it comes to Scopes trials, there is a growing anti-science and anti-history movement within the Hindu world, which has to be taken into account. [theguardian.com]

then you don't know what you're talking about when it comes to hinduism - both astika and nastika. I don't care if you don't choose to define it that way or not ... the eastern beliefs are based on cause and effect and not mysticism. it's that simple. the entire idea of karma is cause and effect. and there are no vendatics clamoring for "non-science" and "more religious".

@Fernapple case in point:

"The Indians came closest to modern ideas of atomism, quantum physics, and other current theories.

The Rig-Veda, is the first Indian literature to set down ideas resembling universal natural laws. Cosmic law is connected with cosmic light, with gods, and, later, specifically with Brahman. It was the Vedic Aryans... who gave the world some of the earliest philosophical texts on the makeup of matter and the theoretical underpinnings for the chemical makeup of minerals. Sanskrit Vedas from thousands of years before Christ implied that matter could not be created, and that the universe had created itself. Two thousand years before Pythagoras, philosophers in northern India had understood that gravitation held the solar system together, and that therefore the sun, the most massive object, had to be at its center." "Twenty-four centuries before Isaac Newton, the Hindu Rig-Veda asserted that gravitation held the universe together. The Sanskrit speaking Aryans subscribed to the idea of a spherical earth in an era when the Greeks believed in a flat one. The Indians of the fifth century A.D. calculated the age of the earth as 4.3 billion years; scientists in 19th century England were convinced it was 100 million years."

Dick Teresi, Lost Discoveries: The Ancient Roots of Modern Science

@JeffMesser So it does do cause and effect then.

Because it's silly to be ignorant first of all.

@JeffMesser That response doesn't answer anything.
Not sure exactly whom you're accusing of being "ignorant"??

@KKGator if you don't know what you're talking about then you'd be "ignorant" on the subject. I thought that was rather clear.

@JeffMesser Enjoy your circular "reasoning".

@KKGator you're the one admittedly without understanding yet you accuse me of a reasoning issue? why don't you guys get over your hate and actually LEARN something about the universe? So tired of this copout "your proof isn't enough to satisfy me so I believe in nothing. I have nothing else to offer, I am just a naysayer without knowledge."

@JeffMesser wow. Okay.

@JeffMesser Crumbs! Samskara really sprung from nowhere in there! Perhaps let moksha kick in and let samsara takes its course. Then you can be at peace for a while and not bother yourself wth any soteriolgical concerns

@Geoffrey51 word soup. moksha is the path to get away from samsara (rebirth).

@JeffMesser There was quite an attachment to KK’s response. I concede my Sanskrit is not up to it. I clearly need to learn.

@Geoffrey51 jagat mitthra. ayam brahmasmi.

@JeffMesser Tathaastu