Clinton's a guaranteed loser...

@Bobby9

Name recognition.

They have "the machine"

They have lots of favors to call in.

Top....... She wants it.

Watch. It is just starting.

Clinton/Warren In 2020

@Bobby9, @Buddha a lot of 2016 Clinton "defectors" are very sorry they got trump. They won't let that happen again.

@Bobby9 I hope you are right. I could not vote for either in 2016. Too many like me gave us trump.

That's an excellent point. We ran a centrist last time and lost. The only way to win is to give people the opportunity to vote for someone who will actually make significant changes that will improve their lives. So many voters are disillusioned with the neoliberal party and the moderate neoliberal party.

Who would want to return to the extremist policies that saved the country from the Great Depression and built largest middle class we’ve had?

@Haemish1 Word

@Bobby9 I disagree, and I think most of the civilized world is on my side. Rights are whatever ethical principle we decide to recognize. A right to medical care is not considered radical or unthinkable in much of the world. Maybe we should try to catch up instead of marching backwards regarding a concept we pioneered.

@Bobby9 Are you not in favor of everyone having equal access to healthcare? Do you not consider the right to education to be a right?

@Bobby9 Yes everyone should have free healthcare because it is a right and therefore everyone should have access to it equally.

This argument of yours that a right cannot be a right if it is economic is bazaar. If you are a writer, or reporter, or youtuber, your right to free speech is your livelihood. Every time you pick up a newspaper or a book or watch the news you are consuming media created by the use of someones free speech right. The right to freedom of religion allows priests and other spiritual charlatans to earn a living. The right of freedom of the press allows everyone involved in the information industry to earn their living. Where did you get this idea that rights cannot be economic in nature?

Lets say hypothetically that you are correct and rights cannot be economic. Well under a universal healthcare system, there are no transactions involved in regard to people receiving healthcare. You have the right to access the services of he police when you are in danger and the fire department when your house is burning and there are no transactions. These are services provided to citizens by the society. Let's make healthcare like that, uneconomic.

@Bobby9 "A "Right" is something everyone can enjoy equally. NO ONE has more rights than another, that would defy the very basis of a right. Therefore is one person had the right to free healthcare, then evryone would have the same right to free health care." These are your words. So by your logic, if everyone gets free healthcare, it can be a right. So let's create a universal healthcare system that provides everyone with free healthcare and healthcare will be a human right.

Enough of this discussion of what can be a right, it's going no where. If you like we can discuss something substantive like what sort of healthcare system we ought to have. I say medicare for all is best. Your thoughts?

@Bobby9 Free healthcare meaning, free at the point of service. No cost to the patient. Healthcare funded through taxation rather than forcing people to pay for profit insurance middle men.

"Therefore is one person had the right to free healthcare, then evryone would have the same right to free health care." You said it yourself, THE RIGHT TO FREE HEALTHCARE. By your own words, it can be a right if everyone gets it.

No I don't think anyone has more rights. I think everyone should get the same quality of healthcare and no one should be left out.

You are stuck on this question of whether or not it is a right. If that is all you are able to discuss, I'm starting to think your education has totally failed you.

@Bobby9 My original question was whether or not you consider education to be a right. Turns out, it is considered to be a right by the ACLU, f the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, and the International Covenant on Economic, Social and Cultural Rights. Education and healthcare are similar in that everyone gets it and it is funded by taxation. So if you can accept that education is a right, maybe you can view healthcare as a right as well.

The reason that I am determined to label healthcare as a right rather than an entitlement is because rights are guaranteed while entitlements can be taken away. I think that healthcare is important enough to earn the label of right.

You can call it an entitlement, I will call it a right. Ultimately, what really matters is that we need to implement a system in which everyone gets it and this for profit and stupidly inefficient way we do it now gets eliminated.

@Bobby9 This solid argument of yours is based on nothing but your own words. You've said that rights have to be equal. Okay healthcare can be equal. You've said that rights can't be economic. I don't know where that came from other than out of your own head. I suppose you could cite a source to back up that claim but by your own logic, it wouldn't do any good because I could cite a source that says otherwise. This is a difference of opinion and we will have to agree to disagree. In my mind, you are wrong and in your mind, I am wrong, and that's okay.

Here is my lucid argument. A right is a right because society decides to make it so. The rights to free speech, press, assembly etc... are rights because the founding fathers made that decision and wrote it down in the Constitution. Healthcare is a right if we decide it is. It is not a right in the USA, yet, but it is considered a basic human right in Canada and other parts of the world. What is and is not a right is subjective and determined by the laws of a given society. Whether or not the right has something to do with economics is irrelevant.

@Bobby9 Well I assure you that you are not capable of making me upset. In fact, if you go back and look over what has been said, judging by all the capitalized words and condescending language you have used, you seem to be the one who has become upset during this discussion.

So some political philosophers have said that rights cannot be economic, fine. The opposite opinion is held by many people in important positions around the world. Again, it is subjective and this discussion is going nowhere. Agree to disagree. That's the best we can do here.

Free healthcare isn't paid by any particular other person. Society pools it's resources and provides it to ever member of the society. It's not one person having a right unavailable to another because everyone gets it. I've said this over and over and this will be the last time I discuss this with you.

So entitlements are entitlements because society says so but that same logic doesn't apply to rights? Where do rights come from then?

@Bobby9 In internet speak, typing in all caps is synonymous with emotional outbursts.

You want me to go hunting for philosophers who argue that rights can be economic while not providing any examples yourself. No thanks, I'll not take that challenge, I'm not going to spend anymore time on this.

Rights are not guaranteed because they are free. The right's granted by the Bill of Rights didn't exist before they were created by man. Rights come into existence when people create them. The right to life didn't exist until murder was outlawed. Your argument is illogical.

@Bobby9 Well you clearly didn't attempt to learn anything from the information I provided to you. Your assumption that it can go only one way, that only I could possibly have something to learn from you and not the other way around makes you seem like a pompous know it all.

I notice that you didn't attempt to refute my argument that rights are created by man. They certainly don't just appear out of nowhere and that easy answer you had about them being human guarantees didn't hold up so I ask you again, where do rights come from?

Fun fact- if you google human guarantees, the first result that appears is the wikipedia page on human rights. And on that page you will find the UN Committee on Economic, Social and Cultural Rights which oversees the International Covenant on Economic, Social and Cultural Rights which lists access to adequate healthcare as an international human right.

@Bobby9 Lol, I must have missed that blowing out of the water that you did. Would you reiterate?

@Bobby9 The question was, where do rights come from? You seen to be having difficulty answering that one.

@Bobby9 You gave no answer at all. All you said is that because they are free, they are human guarantees. Human guarantees are rights guaranteed to all humans regardless of race, nationality, gender ets.. This provides no insight as to where the rights actually come from.

The right to life protects humans from having their lives taken away by other humans. Grief and death by natural causes have nothing to do with it. If there are no laws prohibiting people from killing other people, there is no right to life. Do you think there was right to life long ago before murder was outlawed and justice was obtained through blood feud?

Rights are whatever a given society decides to classify as rights and entitlements are whatever a given society decides to classify as entitlements. It's subjective.

Rights are not decreed to us by a higher power. I think we can agree on that. I say that rights are created by man. Once again I'll ask you, where do rights come from?

@Bobby9 Since is a synonym of because. It means the same thing. You have resorted to repeating the same illogical claim you said in the first place and still have not answered the question of where rights are derived from. I'll take this as admission that you have no answer.

I don't see any contradiction in my words. As I've been saying all along, rights are ethical principals recognized by a society. Once a principal is recognized as a right, it is guaranteed, it cannot legitimately be taken away, unlike an entitlement which can be rescinded. Just because rights that are recognized now were not recognized previously doesn't mean that they were taken away. It means they didn't exist before they were created, by man.

I don't believe that I said that I want to make healthcare a right, not a logic. Rights are created in laws, constitutions, international accords and treaties... they are man made. And yes rights can be infringed upon by removing the laws that put them in place or creating new laws that restrict them. Take freedom of speech for example, it was created in the 1st amendment of the bill of rights. Later a law was passed called the patriot act which limits the right to free speech. This is why, in Bob Marley's words, we must "stand up for our rights." Rights are meant to be guarantees but in practice, in the real world, they do come under attack. But once a right is enshrined as a right, the people fighting for that right have the moral high ground. When rights are infringed upon, it is a tyrannical act, while entitlements can be revoked legitimately.

I think our difference of opinion here is that you see rights as things that simply exist. They are intangible concepts that come about naturally whereas I see them as subjective and man made. Sorry if I'm putting words in your mouth, just trying to understand your viewpoint.

@Bobby9 Sounds good. See ya around