One final tidbit I forgot to add, was an anecdote the pastor told towards the end of his presentation. He spoke of an incident involving a world renowned matador from Spain. Described him with all sorts of glowing superlatives and how he was recognized as the best in the world. He went on to describe with great relish the final death blows against this "massive powerful beast," in awe recounting the final sword thrusts deep into the back of this cruelly brutalized creature as it was essentially tortured to death for public spectacle. I was already a little traumatized by his narration, but expected him to conclude it with that one account where the matador breaks down with anguish because the bull, which the raised knowing the matador under whatever circumstances, confronted the matador as it was being set upon with such incomprehensible violence with plaintive bellows of suffering as if asking why when it looked into the matador's eyes... one living, vulnerable creature to another.

Instead, like he was sharing his favorite recollection of sports heroics, he transition to the big finale of his tale. The bull collapsed from the final sword thrusts. The matador turned and walked away from the bull, arms raised in triumph as he basked in the crowd's adulation. Through the din of the roar, he did not hear the warning shouts as the bull got back up and gored the matador from behing, mortally wounding him.

The pastor used that to drive home the point thst you can be the best at what you do, but still stumble by taking your eyes off the prize, and that the pitfalls of any of us living an unrighteous life, is thst it could be over in the blink of an eye and we'd meet our maker having sealed our own doom. He remind me of a life insurance salesman "backing up the hearse" as they say.

I found his tale of this gruesome reality more indicative of the mindset of someone who was borderline sociopathic rather than one given and deserving deference as some sort of learned moral authority. Not a word about the justifications for this particular blood sport glorifying extreme animal abuse, just a reminder that death could come at any moment so the smart bet is to get right with God now. Fear tactics as an integral element of the sales pitch.

On the drive home, I told my neighbor I considered vigorously clapping when the bull evenedvthe score against the bullfighter, but opted not to out of consideration for him.

Oh, and one other thing that happened that I guess was part the reinforcement of the attitude that God created man with dominion over the animals was a game between two men involving catching live catfish in a water tank (a floor freezer shot from an overhead camera) with a net. The contest was over in about 3 seconds, and the fish was returned to the tank. The prize was a knife. Not a speciality knife used in the preparation of fish, like a scaling knife, but a double-sided battle knife. Pretty much good for little else other than close order combat (though granted, you could cut other stuff on your camping trip with this kick-butt, bad-ass knife that I assume also came with a mean looking scabbard so you could walk around displaying your own manliness lest others mistake you for something other than a tough guy). More manly man stuff. The love of Jeebus embodied in the weapons of war and violence.

Well, that about covers it more our less. It seemed an attempt of imprinting overall. Trying to piggyback those things they were advocating for (accepting scripture as interpreted by those putting on the forum), by linking it to those things already looked at with approval by the general culture regarding men. Sports, cars, military, hunting and fishing, the opposite sex (in a purely chaste and biblical fashion, within the bonds of marriage only and mostly for procreation), etc.

Earlier in the talk, I remember he also thought there were aspects of the surveillance state he felt were laudable, that crime is reduced when security cameras were present. He talked about how one church conference goer followed another after he turned the wrong direction exiting the parking lot as they were both leaving a big church conference. He knew the hotel was in the other direction and took it upon himself to see if any shenanigans were afoit (as if there couldn't have been an innocent explanation for not making a beeline back to the hotel). Sure enough, after tailing him a bit he saw him turn into a strip club, so he pulled along side him, rolled down his window and called out, "Hi, Frank!" Frank was embarrassed and bailed on the club and returned the the hotel. The pastor took much glee in this example of ways of helping your Christian bretheren that dispproving eyes could be anywhere, ready to rat you out.

I shared with my neighbor several quotes that I thought were relavthat recquired no scripture.

One was, "Character us how you act when you think no one is looking."

Also re: pious narcs, I told him a joke.

Q: How do you keep a Mormon from drinking sll your beer on a fishing trip?
A: Invite a second Mormon.

He really liked that one and agreed it applies to more than just Mormons.

Finally, one the point of what they focus one regarding morality (sex, basically), I quoted that dialog from Clint Eastwood's "Unforgiven" about "It's a hell of a thing killing a man... "

Their God is really adamant about where and when you park your private parts, but they seem to be much less troubled under the circumstances which extreme violence is applied by the state to bring about a desired outcome, the presumption being thst when the "good guys" do it, it's barely an issue.

We all likely had our own reasons for walking away from religionism, but for me, hypocrisy and almost total lack of introspection, along with blanket justifications for the the crimes of their God, bordering on insanity, plsyed a karge part in my evolution.

Their claims of revealed knowledge and the supposed moral absolutes handed down, are on the whole, logically inconsistent. I export more from a "perfect being."

I had been to a 1 day secular mens retreat before in the early '80s. If I recall correctly it was patterned after some book that was popular at the time (something to do with Iron John I think). It was a friend of the family who was into that whole self-help motivational forums type thing (he once paid for my attendance to a Lifespring[tm] conference a few years later - kind of Scientology-lite without the hardcore ratfvcking). It was a pleasant enough affair, a little like group counseling with sharing and bonding in a supportive environment, with some book references here and there thrown in. Some were dads who brought their boys. It had kind of a scouting feel to it. I guess the bottom line message was work to be a better you, understanding the societal notions of what it is to be a man does not have to be set in stone, and seek to build each other up as opposed to a competitiveness that is often largely oneupsmanship. Somewhat generic, but on the whole benign enough.

I remember it ended with this song in a cakewalk circle. I thought that kind of captured the feel. Some men were in tears having come with their own issues and traumas and so forth and seemed to take comfort in the camaraderie in a men only environment (I wonder how things might work with transgender participants - there's some controversy regarding TERF acceptance as a women's issue - the group were welcoming to gay members).

Chatting with my neighhbor on the drive home I told him I've known Christians who were some of the nicest people I've encountered, and some of the worst, and everywhere along the spectrum in between.

I said what occured to me during the session when they were talking about moral absolutes and standing firm regarding righteous actions (the focus being issues of sexual immorality as they saw it), I mentioned they made a few military references (how it's not like we're in Baghdad in our armor when we're out in the world of temptation). I observed how while they'll apply these so-called absolutes to things sexual, they don't seem to apply a similar focus on the obscenity of warfare and how readily they tend to overlook the death, destruction, and maiming of flesh inflicted on a massive industrial scale against innocent men, wonen, and children that our endless wars involve ("collateral damage" ). I said I'd probably at least have a little more respect for believers if their priorities made a little more sense to me. I quoted that Clint Eastwood line from "Unforgiven."

William Munny: "It's a hell of a thing, killing a man. You take away all he's got and all he's ever gonna have."

:-----:

"I am so bloody sick of the claim that the slaughter of innocent people by bringing down the full force of modern weaponry from every possible direction to mangle their flesh in the most horrific and violent ways is not monstrous because [we have a good reason]."

~ LanceThruster

Wow, pretty skeevy. A lot of business cons are perpetrated by the false assumption that felliw Christians could not also be crooks. I remember reading one Christian advising that it it preferable to show one's Christian character by reputation and quality of work rather than by a notation on the business card, though even that falsely presumes that Christians have some sort of monopoly on integrity.

I told my neighbor that I expected some sort of church outreach, though that wasn't the case. It was still of limited value as all there was no element of their worldview dealt with outside of a scriptural one. Truly a one-trick-pony.

I remember walking over to the LA Colosseum to see what the Promise Keeper ralky crowd was like. Just kind of generic Christian boosterism like you'd probably expect, though I was already familiar with the darker side of their dogma. I think my friends and I were next door at the old LA Sports Arena for a concert or something.

I always find it both remarkable and more than a little off-putting that people seem to feel that they need to draw others into their worldview out of what I perceive as a glaring insecurity.

:----:

"Nothing angers a believer more than for someone to reject their desperately held religious notions."

~ LanceThruster

Yeah, for the most part, I don't mind interacting with practically anyone, though there's quite a variation as far as the level of their PR and attemps at outreach. Some simply want to demonstrate a sense of community, whereas others seem to be about trying to establish some sort of superiority of their sect/worldview/communal bonds. Some can be downright cultish.

I used to be the atheist advisor at my university for the student group within the Office of Religious Life. I told the leaders of the other sectarian groups that it was always pleasant to participate in their gatherings even from the standpoint of a humanist as the act of breaking bread together is symbolic and universal in that historically as the act of sharing food represents the desire that others do not starve. I think that is often overlooked these days and is instead often an excuse for gluttony. As is sometimes observed about Thanksgiving, that it it supposedly meant to be about gratitude that one has enough (if that's the case), followed immediately by the orgy of materialism urging you to get more stuff, built around the consumerism of the Christmas season.

They had nothing overtly political, though they began with a generic prayer calling for blessings and guidance for our political leaders.

@WilliamCharles it is the hypocrisy that bothers me.

Believers rarely notice the overlap and parallels of other creation and savior myths.

I summed up Christianity as follows -

"God sent God to die for God so that God could forgive God's creations according to God's unbending rules."

~ LanceThruster

Too Rube Goldberg for my tastes.

Yeah, there's always that mindset that the "proof" is out there, but we're just too stubborn to accept it.