I spent far too much time looking into which group this would be most appropriately posted, so it goes in General and Hellos.
Has anyone studied or read the works of Origen of Alexandria, one of the early church fathers turned heretic? I dove deep into this guy through a couple of years of religious philosophy classes in college, and he always intrigued me. I've only read a few of his works, but his idea of an allegorical interpretation of the Bible always stood out for me. He lived from 184-253 AD, and especially for that time, the idea of an allegorical interpretation of the Bible seems rather radical, and many of his more notable ideas made me wonder if he may have been onto something. Not God. But something. His Christian theology is very very unlike the Christianity of today, and reads much like something that could have eventually been reconciled with science and become less of a religion or belief in God, and more of a universal humanistic philosophy.
Anytime I ask someone if they are familiar with this guy, all I get are blank stares. I thought, surely, someone here will have come across him in their research, and I would love to see what other's thoughts are.
Now we see if I am right or wrong.
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Feel free to reply to any comment by clicking the "Reply" button.I generally stop with King James as I became more familiar with the African/ Kemet/ Alkebulan continent , I realized that the Christian religion was definitely not intended for the African but was used as a tool to pacify my ancestors as there identity was stripped and refashioned. I will perhaps check this guy out however just to update myself .
Outsideit67
Level 7
May 20, 2020
1
Ahhh, the Mother of Mankind. I haven't heard the reference of Alkebulan in a long time. Thank you. I've felt her pull since the first time I visited and it has only gotten stronger each time I have been,. It's something that never goes away. So much wrong has been done in the world, by religion, by people...one of the things I liked about his philosophy was that it was intended to be applicable to all people. It wasn't an 'us against them' framework but more of a 'we're all in this together' one. You might find some of it interesting.
My days in Medbury Hall Drake divinity School was full of Origen Augustine Thales Socrates Plato Thomas Merton Josephus Kant Hegel Locke Rouseau Diderot Voltaire Hypatia and Elizabeth Cady Stanton ...... there is no single roadmap to life parenting love or death...... Newton wrote the formulae for gravitation and a black woman calculated astromaut travel to the last 2 miles for splashdown from retro rocket fire to slow down orbital speed......bad boys still want rockets like a penis to play with.....Newton bragged on his deathbed: " I never married nor masturbated " Socrates bragged he was beautiful because his eyes were so big
......one can blather on upon Paul or John or Matthew and ignore Luke & Mark and pretend the Gospel of Thomas is more infallible than geebush jeehobah ghostholes.....let it all go .....Humanism is verbosity too ....... be ethical be competent be safe be happy
Larry68Feminist
Level 7
May 20, 2020
2
Poor Newton.
@Amzungu he did not know what he was missing
Origen surely had some inspiring thoughts, but because lately I'm interested in the newly 'hot' idea of a cyclical universe (as opposed to a Big Bang-style one) and reincarnation (which he rejected though he confusingly tolerated 'transmigration of the soul'
, and because he held versions of ULTRA-conservative Christian orthodox beliefs, and because I don't believe one word of the Christ myth anyway, the entire artifice of the theology surrounding it seems like an exercise in layering ever-more elaborate myths on top of earlier myths, not a fleshing out of a true story and it's supporting dogma.
During this time the 'real story' of 'Christ' and his supposed life, teachings, origin, nature, and that of the universe, were in enormous flux, which tells me it was primarily if not entirely an intellectual exercise, and the prevailing doctrine 'won' for many reasons, but probably NOT because it was the truth.
For instance, Origen's idea 'God' created all spirits before the world was created, and Christ's soul first of all, seems merely that, a notion of his, ultimately rejected by the church. Why? I personally don't know or care, but it goes to show it MIGHT have been adopted. Would that have made it the more true? Not in MY opinion! It's irrelevant anyway, to me, because the whole edifice is fiction built upon fiction.
Do you think otherwise? What is your point?
Storm1752
Level 8
May 19, 2020
1
My only point was that, as you said, he had some inspiring ideas, and while Christianity has certainly become an edifice of fiction upon fiction, a different philosophy as it's basis may have created something much different. I am not arguing for an existence of God. I am not arguing that there is truth in the currently accepted version of Christianity. I am simply intrigued by one of the most prolific scholars of that time, and curious about the ideas he had that were so unlike what we see in Christianity today. No focus on Gods will, no need for a church, everyone occupies the same space and their own actions determine their 'souls' fate, yes, transmigration of 'souls' (which is eerily similar to a physicists view on what happens during death), almost nonexistent dogma...all likely reasons why he was deemed heretical, as his views made it very unnecessary to control a population with it's precepts. My point is, that perhaps there were scholars at that time who were more interested in finding truths than simply meeting the sociopolitical needs of the day.
@Amzungu Yeah there might be SOME truth there, which he fit into his cosmology, which he learned from someone else, and obviously believed. He had his own unique 'belief system,' and probably had some mystical experiences which were probably authentic.
But the source of whatever he believed was, I proffer, more basic to the stuff of life itself, energy and matter. And nobody seems to know for sure WHAT that is.
Let's say he was in touch with some 'true' source of inspiration which was then filtered through his belief system to produce a fictionalized VERSION of A 'truth.' Right?
Best I can do. When you think of all the brilliant men and women who were equally convinced they knew THE truth but, perhaps like Origen, instead also only 'knew' a fictionalized version of it, you might think before we decide for OURselves what the 'truth' is, we should discount or discard about, oh, 99.9% of it.
@Storm1752 I don't at all disagree with you there. You said "But the source of whatever he believed was, I proffer, more basic to the stuff of life itself, energy and matter. And nobody seems to know for sure WHAT that is" and that is precisely what I found so intriguing about his version of the 'truth' -he didn't claim to be able to define the things we do not know and it read like something more basic to the stuff of life itself, energy and matter. When I look at the scientific understanding we have gained in the nearly 2000 years since then, if you remove the 'religious' labels to the communication, it doesn't necessarily completely fall apart. That's why I said I think he may have been onto something. Not God. Not even necessarily the 'truth', but something. Something more relative to the stuff of life.
I think he's usually listed among the early church fathers in history of Western philosophy texts. As I recall, he was an early neoPlatonist (and Plato was a master of allegory) and Christian neoPlatonism remained the dominant medieval worldview at least until the time of St. Thomas Aquinas.
Wallace
Level 7
May 19, 2020
4
You recall absolutely correctly.
I do not know of him. But if he was from the first century and many bible books done then, maybe he was, although the doubt is very high...
BUT, many of them so called books have been edited and re-edited from many different religious sects from that period all the way through to the "modern ones"...a real god would never have to go to such idiotic means to prove whom he/she was.. but guys with huge control issues will do that and i doubt an all powerful god would need to use such control issues.....
HerbertNewsam
Level 6
May 19, 2020
1
From what I have read years ago ,I would say he was the most influential Christian Theologian before St.Augustine and most definitely one of the most controversial Christian thinkers of all time.Very interesting individual for sure .
richiegtt
Level 8
May 19, 2020
5
I am a bit of a sucker for a rebel genius.
It's all a waste of time on more bullshit
Mofo1953
Level 9
May 19, 2020
1
I don't think being curious and wanting to understand something better is ever a waste of time. But, I am a nerd.
@Amzungu good to know what you think, if you want to waste your time trying to understand such a load of crap, go ahead. All I know is crap is and always will be crap, no matter how much you analyze it, look at it from different angles and taste tests, at the end you will be basically covered in, yep, crap.
@Mofo1953 I think you may misunderstand me. I am not trying to understand or taste test religion or Christianity, I already know the end of that road is a load of crap. Origen was not just a Christian theologian, he was a genius scholar and prolific writer. Just a few of the hats he wore. Religion is not a new phenomena and In my opinion, it is useful to look back at how we got to where we are with it now, because that particular load of crap has caused nothing but problems throughout history. I simply found him particularly intriguing, He developed a comprehensive Christian philosophy that addressed a lot of the key issues with the definition or interpretation of the belief that are the same absurdities and hypocrisy's and wrongness that is the cornerstone of Agnostics, Atheists and Humanist belief. He also did not try to define that which cannot be defined. It was okay to say some things were not known. I mean, there was no shortage of reasons that he was banished as a heretic. His 'version' looked nothing like what we see now. Therein lies my intrigue.
They should just rename General & Hellos as the The Dumping Ground for Homeless Posts.
Sgt_Spanky
Level 8
May 19, 2020
4
I owned it.
Not familiar.
I'm reading Anatole France's novel, "Penguin Island". In this book the St. Mael is blown off coarse and ends up on an island inhabited by Penguins. Because of his poor eyesight, he assumes that they are just a population of short heathens. He baptizes them.
Then God and the other elders in heaven are so perplexed by having Penguins baptized that he turns them into short humans. St. Mael tows the island to the coast of Brittany. Anatole then begins to tell the history of humans and Christianity through the eyes of the Penguins as humans.
It's not exactly a comedy as it was a treatise of the conditions of humans (written in 1947). But it dies have its tongue in cheek
You may like and appreciate if you can find a copy.
t1nick
Level 8
May 19, 2020
3
Thank you for the recommendation. It sounds very interesting.
He was mentioned in my church days but his commentaries were not of the bible as we know it today. Some of it existed but that book had not been created yet. Churches today are good at telling you things and putting others like Origen there as a proof of what the preacher was saying. Instead, Origen may have been one of the first humanists.
DenoPenno
Level 9
May 19, 2020
4
I only learned of Origen after I had abandoned my faith. It is apparent that, despite Paul's attempts to doctrinally unify the early Christian church, the fledgling faith had become home to a diverse set of beliefs and authors, many of which were eliminated by the council of Nicaea (325 A.D.). It is through the research of scholar/authors like Bart Ehrman and Elaine Pagels that I, as one who once believed in the authenticity of scripture, learned about the political and entirely human actors who determined what should be believed. A vote by fallible, politically motivated men forever decided what was to be discarded and what would be retained. A small group of men determined what is "God's Word!"
p-nullifidian
Level 8
May 19, 2020
5
Exactly. I would love to have been a fly on the wall during the Council of Nicaea. I suspect it went down much like a Trump task force meeting, but with much more formal language.
This is a cute, helpful 2-part video about this stuff
@Amzungu And formal education!
@Amzungu that was complete bullshit. ...Constantine consolidated all his soldiers cults into one mish mash of gibberish mythology no different from one pharaoh changing all the gawds into one Sungod Aten
.....all religions are bullshit blessing the rape of women and brainwashing boys into military cults
@p-nullifidian very good point!
Thanks for posting this! I’ve heard the name but knew nothing about his philosophy. I will certainly look into it now. This is actually something I have been looking for for several years. I had come to a similar conclusion, and wondered who might have walked that path before. Thank you! Do you have a particular book to recommend?
skado
Level 9
May 19, 2020
1
It would be good for a recommendation.
@skado I warn you, it's a rabbit hole, but I think you might enjoy it. I have only read his Complete Works, which is greatly misleading. It's a compilation of 8 books and letters and includes commentary on a couple of Gospels. Also, a buttload of research articles, and if you end up wanting any of those, I am happy to dig them up and post. But I have a sneaking feeling you're a pretty competent researcher all on your own.
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