Sports Hero? In the news (radio) today, they're suggesting that "all eyes are on Tiger Woods as he makes an amazing comeback in Augusta."
(note: I don't really care about golf... (or most sports) the issues is broader.)
A listener called in saying we shouldn't be supporting or promoting someone who had cheated on his wife, that Tiger Woods was a rotten, immoral person and we shouldn't, as a society, raise him to a 'hero' or 'idol' status.
The radio guy responded with something to the effect of: if we cut out everyone who had cheated in their relationship, we wouldn't be able to watch any sport. You won't be able to listen to your favorite bands, and you might not be able to call the police when faced with a crime...
Question: Does something "bad" someone has done in one area of their life, negate something "good" they've done in another?
Thoughts?
I think the real question here is 'do we have right to judge others?'. And if so who do we appoint to do the judging, ourselves as individuals, society, our media, state appointed judges or (if religious) in the final analysis , a supreme being. The idea of balance is a rather ludicrous one. I also smile when I hear the phrase 'natural justice', another way of supposedly balancing the scales considering that Nature has no concept of justice (earthquakes, hurricanes etc just happen). I like to seek to attain the point were I just am and the reason for my existance is no more relevant that the reason for a bumblebee to exist. But I digress.
It is perfectly reasonable to have an opinion on the actions of others. (Though one would hope it was a considered opinion and not one based on our own inherent predjudices; always useful to ask ourselves 'why did I react that way?' ) Having an affair was a pretty shitty thing to do on his wife. But we all do shitty things. Hopefully we have regret and avow not to do them again. Judging people because of their actions and treating them less as a result is surely unfair and says more about us as a person than the person we are judging?
Thanks for your comments!
You bring up: 'do we have the right to judge others?'
I'm not sure about the word (or notion of the word) "right" but - Yes, we have the 'right to judge others'. Again, I would hope that folks doing the judging are informed and not basing it on some predetermined factors that may or may not be relevant; but yes, we judge every day, everyone, all the time. Sure, we try not to jump to conclusions, but we judge people to determine if they are a good fit... Job Candidate, Life Partner, Friend... is it safe to go home with this person, is this person selling me a good product that I need or is this a scam? We judge all the time.
(Yes - it says in my profile that I try not to judge others - what that implies, of course, is that I do my best to not jump to any conclusions or assume I know what others are going through. The term gets thrown around a lot and is often misused or misunderstood - I may be guilty of such.) Ok - Rant over.
I agree with your statement... and while I can argue specifics or nuances, I agree with what you're saying. We've all done shitty things - and we've all done great things.
I'm inclined to think that a person who has committed terrible 'acts', might also be able to commit some wonderful 'acts'.
I get what you're saying, and I agree, despite my rant.
(I could go on about the bumblebees being more important than us...)
@scurry that was a rather mild rant i thought ?
@SimonCyrene I'm usually pretty mild.
My favorite flavor of ice cream is vanilla... ?
@scurry there's a difference between mild and bland ?. Rum n raisen all the way! ?
@SimonCyrene Well... I do like Rum!!!
@scurry hello sailor! ?
@SimonCyrene LOL
We all have things we are not happy we did but it doesn't mean we didn't learn from it and if it's not relevant to other things it shouldn't matter. if he is playing awesome golf and winning then he deserves to be looked up to just for his sport.on the other hand if you are an animal keeper and found to be cruel that's another thing. some things are forgivable.
I don't think we should get all excited about someone's good deeds beyond the deeds themselves and extrapolate them into heroes. It's like we shouldn't expect moral guidance from our politicians. We chose them to run a government, not lead us to the promised land. Look at people realistically. JFK was a great man but he was also philanderer AND bit of a warmonger. MLK cheated on his wife.
We've ALL got feet of clay.
Do we write off every hero because they're human? Which is essentially what the caller would have us do.
Bill Cosby made some very funny television with some good points about race at the time. He did that in spite of his wrongs.
My feeling is that we should celebrate human achievements regardless. In the right light we're not too bad for poorly shaved apes.
I see this all the time on the HP Lovecraft forum I'm in. He was a xenophobe from a very insular New England community in the early 20th century and some of the things he wrote are egregiously racist. However, he was also a genius and invented an entire genre of literature whose impact can be seen far and wide.
As we become more and more able to dig up dirt on folks, I've come to a decision. Essentially every human being is a terrible person. Everyone has done something that someone, somewhere, is going to find offensive. Sometimes it's clear and obvious, like with Lovecraft. Other times, it's a matter of interpretation. But if I'm going to stop following the work of every person who did/said awful things, I would literally have to throw everything out. I have to draw a line and consider things like time period and severity of what they did/said. I will continue to read and positively discuss Lovecraft's fiction while acknowledging that his racism, while common for the time, is still inexcusable.
However I will never knowingly watch anything involving Kevin Spacey ever again.
These are just my examples, though.
Not that I'm defending Spacey...
But can not what he did be likened to what Lovecraft did?
Where they not just doing what was accepted and expected in the situations that they were in (ie the culture of the time/place/industry)?
(No, I'm not saying what Spacey did was ok - not at all!!!)
But if you will read Lovecraft, why would you not watch Spacey?
(I'm not saying you should, I'm just asking the question.)
@scurry I had to think about this for a while and I think the difference is that even though his racism is inexcusable there's no evidence in the huge amount of details about his life that Lovecraft ever directly harmed another person. Spacey did. I think that's part of where my line is.
@memorylikeasieve Fair enough.
And well said.
Thanks for the explanation.
When I'm deciding where to spend my dollars - be it for food, entertainment, supplies - I only put my dollars behind those people & places whose behavior (values) matches mine. Dollars are votes or a show of support. For the sake of my own integrity, I choose to be mindful in this way. I think it's important.
I applaud your integrity and it sounds simple when you put it like that.
I suppose, like out votes, where we put our dollars can change as we learn more information.
My suspicion, however, is that if we knew 'everything' that we might be bored, hungry and naked.
As a person currently living a polyamorous alt-lifestyle, with mutual love and respect, the agreement is that each can do as we please, while not hurting or endangering the other. It's very loving and open and the trust that comes with the honesty is agreeable.
In a monogomous commited relationship, there's that whole commitment issue. If one makes a commitment one should adhere to it or not enter into the commitment if one cannot adhere to it. Breaking commitments damages trust and says something not so savory regarding ones character.
For those who choose to be in the public eye...I don't believe we should easily nod in approval of or ignore socially unacceptable behaviors and continue to show support.
I don't enjoy watching train wrecks nor would I pay to watch one.
There are varying degrees & types of mistakes as well.
Stealing a food because one is staving, is wrong but small & understandable wrong.
Stealing a neighbors pet and eating it because one is starving is a whole other level of wrong.
If the person's acts aren't truly vile and they haven't used their celebrity to preach how other people should live, vote, whatever then no. If however they've crossed that line and inserted themselves into other areas of life then let them cop the full weight of the outrage.
Holding celebrities up as heros, idols and role models is daft anyway.
Depends if you have a personal relationship with that person. If its someone visable in your life-family member or friend you know them well enough to make that judgement. Example would be: my brother is serving time for dealing but he diid all that volunteer work with handicapped children. Celebrities I don't get into that much.
I don't have a personal relationship with Tiger Woods... (or any other sports 'star' for that matter). I don't have a personal relationship with most Celebrities either...
So some unrelated negative act can and should negate the good they've done in their related field?
Also - You're brother - you listed the specific, but nothing further (not that you have to). I presume that you think that the one negative thing doesn't negate the other good that he does... yes?
So celebrities and sports figures are and should be judged more harshly?
I was proposing a fictional character - I have one sister - lol. If you don't know someone personally why would you be that invested in them? I don't judge anyone-who am I to judge others?
It depends. If what the person has done is so damaging or hurtful to others, the answer is definitely "yes." If the action causes the loss of trust in the person's integrity and character, the answer is again "yes."
So if some great scientist manages to find an instant and affordable cure for cancer, but has cheated on his wife and his girlfriend, and his taxes and maybe last night's poker game.
Does that mean he's a terrible person?
Does that mean we shouldn't marvel at his great achievement and cure a bunch of people?
What if he happened to have killed someone, but his cure will save thousands.
What if they only worked on a team that found the cure, and is sleeping with his kid's 16 year old babysitter on the side? Does that make a difference?
Just asking...
Not sure there's a right or wrong answer or a clear cut line.
No. This is the old separate the art from the artist argument. People have major flaws. They make mistakes. Sometimes catastrophic ones that hurt others. If they own up to and apologize for those mistakes, or even better make attempts to compensate for them by doing good things, then those mistakes can (sometimes) be forgiven. It does not negate the work.
There are people who have done very grave things that have made huge contributions to art, society and science. Take a look at someone like Wernher Von Braun who was responsible for many of the advancements in NASA. But during the war, he presided over forced labor camps for the Nazis to build V2 rockets in which many people died of starvation and effectively torture. That is just one singular example.
Great answer!!
and one I agree with almost to the letter.
I don't think that 'great art' should forgive a bad act. But neither should a bad act negate 'great art'. I think it's very possible to have an accomplished artist, scientist or celebrity that may have also done some terrible things.
And while we may have the luxury of not supporting the celebrity's play, movies, or whatever; we don't have the same luxury of dismissing the scientist's vaccine, treatment or cure.