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Hello logical thinkers, thoughts on veganism? Yes/No. Heck yeah/why not?

naughtyxavi 4 Nov 25
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I support many of the aims of vegans and share many of their motivations, but find the almost religious dogmatism many have about it very off-putting. I eat meat rarely and if i do, i usually eat meat from non mammals or from responsibly farmed animals or game. But I still am what some vegans call a speciescist. I put the well being and non suffering of humans above the well being and non suffering of animals and i make distinctions between different species of animals.

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The most compassionate and the most selfish thing one can do is go vegan. We have huge dead zones in the Gulf of Mexico. We're overfishing fish that are full of plastic bits and toxic chemicals. We're killing the soil by spraying it with pesticides, fungicides, herbicides. (The soil needs to be alive in order to sustain life.) Antibiotics are becoming useless because we keep livestock in squalid and horrid conditions that without antibiotics they would be diseased. We're dumping a lot of crap into the atmosphere just to transport inexpensive (subsidized) meat to the US.

The planet can sustain all its people if they were to eat vegan. It can't sustain all its people on a meat-based diet.

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To eaches iwn i could and would never choose to be vegan vut that's me besides most vegans have an over inflated sence of self righteousness they vlow out their ars other than that like i said to eaches own

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humans have so overpopulated the planet it doesn't matter what we eat anymore. what does matter is how efficiently food of all sorts has to be produced because of this. The human cycle is a huge machine that needs to keep working faster and faster with less and less space so animals suffer so badly for our needs whatever we eat.without death, there can not be life. without the wolf, there will be no plants. without insects their can't be elephants. we are entwined in a world that was balanced with nature keeping the strong as the weak are plucked away. humans just completely destroy all of this and try and get nature to work for them. that can't keep up. we want to do infinite things on a finite planet.

Actually, the rising population and increasing demand in meat only makes it something that matters more. Apart from the moral aspect as to why vegans stop consuiming animal products, animal agriculture is in fact detrimental to the health of the planet. One might not instantly feel this connection unless one is presented with the statistics after which a rational thinker can understand how animal agriculture is one of the least efficient and sustainable methods to meet nutirtional requirements.

One of the main ways in which the livestock sector contributes to global warming is through deforestation caused by expansion of pasture land and arable land used to grow feed crops. Overall, animal agriculture is responsible for about 9% of human-caused carbon dioxide emissions globally (UN FAO).

Beef is a bigger problem than other sources of meat
Producing beef requires significantly more resources (e.g. land, fertilizer, and water) than other sources of meat. As ruminant animals, cattle also produce methane that othersources (e.g. pigs and chickens) don't.

Eschel et al. 2014 estimated that producing beef requires 28 times more land, 6 times more fertilizer and 11 times more water than producing pork or chicken. As a result, the study estimated that producing beef releases 4 times more greenhouse gases than a calorie-equivalent amount of pork, and 5 times as much as an equivalent amount of poultry.

Eating vegetables produces lower greenhouse gas emissions yet. For example, potatoes, rice, and broccoli produce approximately 3–5 times lower emissions than an equivalent mass of poultry and pork (Environmental Working Group 2011). The reason is simple – it's more efficient to grow a crop and eat it than to grow a crop, feed it to an animal as it builds up muscle mass, then eat the animal.

if it isn't beef it would be palm oil or something else. humans are very wasteful and selfish. if we don't stop breeding the world will crash.

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There are genuine reasons for someone to decide to go vegan.
It CAN be (depending on where you get your food from) more environmentally friendly than eating meat, I have been about a 95% vegetarian for the last two years for environmental reasons but I try to buy as much local produce as possible otherwise the environmental benefits are almost completely canceled out.
It CAN have some health benefits (although it can also have some major health detriments as well).

I have two reasons why I dislike some vegans as individuals (not veganism as a concept) 1) Many vegans do it for stupid reasons. "Think of the cute animals" is a bad reason to be a vegan (or vegetarian for that matter) "veganism brings you closer to nature" is a stupid argument because we evolved the ability to eat meat thus veganism could very easily be considered "unnatural" 2) If you're the kind of vegan that goes around telling people that they are terrible for not also being vegan you're an elitist. At the end of the day veganism can be a very expensive lifestyle choice, especially when buying non-food products. Many people simply can't afford to go vegan and saying that that makes them animal murderers make you the terrible person.

At the end of the day as long as you don't try to forcefully push it on others I am more than happy with your decision to be vegan

Yes, I agree that vegan activism has a lot to improve, especially because of the elitists. And this does create a bad mark for vegans in general. I always advise fellow vegans to inform and explain rather than to blame and shame. Although to be fair, not everyone can be as patient and some meat eaters tend to be very dismissive and narrow minded about the concept tending to basically make fun of veganism when it happens to be a more serious issue.

"Think of the cute animals" is not a good reason, or should I say, the right reason. But, thinking about "the animals" is indeed a good reason especially when the cruelty can be categorized as unnecessary for our survival and welfare. It's not about them being cute, but our moral perspective on suffering that wouldn't exist without meat eaters.

Having compassion for other life forms isn't a stupid reason. Compassion on any level should be applauded because there's just not enough of it. I've never met a vegan who goes around telling people that they are terrible because they eat other beings. Usually, most of the vegans I know welcome all to their potlucks and parties and events. They're intersectional, meaning they care about environmentalism, social justice (human rights/poverty/racism/sexism), animal right, and all the issues that compassionate people should care about.

Veganism is a logical response to an unsustainable practice of meat eating.

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Well we are omnivores, so we are lucky enough that we are able to choose meat or vegetables, whatever kind people prefer, that's up to them.

Mr_Dj Level 5 Nov 27, 2017

Please educate yourself on the vegan perspective on things and engage in the discussion later. There are ethical, environmental and health reasons as to why many meat lovers make the "personal choice" to go vegan because it's right thing to do.

You can start here, if you'd like.

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The only real issue for most people is that a vegan diet is seldom as tasty as one that includes meat.

When I had leukemia, I went on a mostly vegan diet, as I knew it was healthier. Non vegan items I ate at the time were only eggs and sometimes seafood.

I do think that the way animals are treated when raised for food is nto healthy, in that they are injected with hormones and drugs, and lead virtually theri entire lives under great emotional stress, and their meat when butchered in loaded with stress hormones and the things they are injected with, which cant' be all too healthy for humans over the long run.

If you tasted a steak form a rain fed factory farm cow and then tasted a steak from a grass fed, range raised cow your would taste a world of difference. It is not quite as dramatic as a store bought tomato versus one you've grown organically in your own garden, but it is still highly noticeable.

One of th reasons why Americans are so fat is that they get a high calorie, but poor nutrition diet. Processed foods retain calories, but lose nutrition. When calories have no real nutritional value, it is said to have "empty calories". Peopl in the U.S. are nto educated about proper nutrition without a lot of effort on their own part to educated themselves.

You can eat a vegan diet, and as logn as you vary your diet and eat a large variety of foods, you will be healthier than the average meat eater, even without much exercise. You will also, over time, not age as quickly. Your body uses nutrients (not calories) to maintain your body and build new cells. If your body doesn't get enough nutrients, over time your cells will not be as healthy and your body will tend to age faster.

In ancient Greece, the best Olympic athletes were almost all vegetarians. Several top athletes today are also vegetarians, although not quite numerous enough for the general public to take notice of.

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Heck Yes! It's about sustainability. It's about compassion for self and others. It's about resources and not burning down rainforests for cheap feed for cheap burgers and exploiting (killing) the local farmers to steal their land in the Global South. It's about health for the planet, self, others, and animals. It's about saving money, lives, and sharing resources. It's about community. Vegan potlucks and get-togethers are fun. It's about giving a fuck for something more than your stomach. It's about the evolution of humans. I don't want to hear about how and what we ate when we were "cave people." And I don't want to hear about protein from animals being superior. It's not.
I've listed sites below from well known and respected physicians who advocate a healthy whole food plant diet. Kaiser hospital in LA advocates for a plant-based diet. Canada, a whole country, advocates for plant-based diet.
[huffingtonpost.com]

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To each his or her own.

If we were all islands that would be a valid sentiment, but since everything is interdependent and interconnected, we need to think beyond self in order to save self. We must start to think more deeply about everything that we do, consume, and are.

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As a committed vegetarian I say, absolutely. I did not develop my eating habit 'cold Turkey' (pardon the pun). It was a process that developed over a couple of years. At first it was about personal health but then it became a moral issue (there are huge environmental repercussions).
One thing I discovered that by closing a few doors one opened far more. Meat can be limiting to seeing other food sources.and there are far more than most realize. More and more meat replacement foods are being introduced. In the end eating is a sensuous endeavor and I dare anyone to say otherwise. We eat for pleasure and it involves all the senses. One should question at what cost does that pleasure entail? There is one other gross thing that 95% don't recognize. I think it best to talk about a program highlighting this. In Seattle's Woodland Park zoo there is an income generating program called 'zoo doo'. Animal scat is decomposed to make fertilizer and it is so popular there is a raffle drawing for the stuff. There is a 'doctor doo' in charge (I kid you not). He has tours on how the program works. You go outside and see a huge pile of scat. There is a thermometer with a long probe which he inserts into the pile. It shows how hot the center is. He then asks is there something one notices? Usually one doesn't notice anything and that is the point; no odor. He said this pile comes from herbivores only. The carnivore poop is totally unfit (slimy and smelly) and is sent through the city's sewer line. Tell that to your carnivore friends and listen to the laughter!

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Veganism seems to make common sense and should to critical thinkers who have escaped religion. I’m vegetarian and almost vegan but i like eggs too much! This happened at the same time i became an atheist as i could see the meat trap as very similar to the religion trap. I used to be a big meat eater but since finding out about the lack of ethics in raising our food i find it easy to be vegetarian.

That was me for a while. I discovered a test call an antibody assessment test. One gives a couple of drops of blood and it is sent to a lab for analysis. You then receive a chart listing a lot of different foods and your bloods reaction to those foods. I found I had an reaction to dairy (which I already knew) + eggs, soy, sesame and sunflower seeds. Some (like dairy and the seeds) were high and the others moderate. Ones body is reacting to certain foods and it may come back to 'bite' you.

0

I don’t like the idea of preying upon other animals, but we all eat something else. I can easily conceive of our species becoming the food for other species. That’s disturbing. But, in the end, we all live off something else. Plants gave a right to live just like animals. Who are we to make a distinction. Ultimately it just doesn’t matter. I choose not to kill otter beings, but I still eat their bodies.

I just received a facebook item from a friend in England. He is asking for people to pledge, in the Brexit process, against removal of the sentient being clause in the European Union constitution. I think the key item is sentient and the degree of sentience for our food choices.

Species that are able to locomote evolved to feel pain, so as to react to a stimuli and avoid harm and danger. Our current knowledge on pain (physical and emotional) shows us that it is possible only because of a nervous system and a brain to intepret the signals which plants lack. We could say that plants can't feel pain and therfore it would mean less harm to eat plants than animals. However, for the sake of argument, if upon further research we do find that plants have a different way of feeling pain, it would thus equate a plant's life to an animal's life, in which case a meat eater would still cause more harm as you would have to consider the large quantity of grains fed to factory farmed animals during their lifetime. To attain the same amount of nutrients from a plant-based diet rather than meat, one is able to cause less suffering upto 10 times or more.

So you’re saying it’s the choice for the most good. Utilitarianism doesn’t change the fact your killing living organisms for your consumption.

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I like animals , but I don't think that they have a future to look up to , so if we don't use them as food , what are they for? each animal has a purpose , we ride some , we raise some , we find things with some , it is not cool to say that animals are there for the sake of human , but that's the way it is actually , and I do get those who are vegans and I think they are too kind , I can never live without eating meat .
Maybe one day I would change my mind , who knows!

Hope4Zoe replied:
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A fallacy that animals are there for humans to use as they see fit. I think you got that from the bible. Time to rethink where your ideas come from. Animals are there for their own pleasure. They do NOT surrender their lives willingly to you. They feel pain and have the desire to survive.

What future do we have? All animals, us included, really have no future plan. Our purpose is to live and participate in the evolutionary process. We are omnivores and can live very well without animal food.
However, I will admit I am a bit of a hypocrite. We have a family that spends their time fishing in Alaska. They come to these islands twice a year and sell Salmon which I buy. It is a family business (they catch, filet, vacuum pack and freeze everything on board). I want to support the family. The prices are high which keeps the demand a little lower.

@hopeZoe I never read the bible actually , my past religion was Islam , and yes I do agree with you , we were brought up with many wrong ideas ,hopefully one day we can get to correct them

@JackPedigo Yeah we can never know what is going on in those animals lives and we are very selfish as human , I wish that can change

It can change but it must start with individuals. Are there vegetarian choices in you part of the world? When I was in Germany it was very easy finding vegetarian food because many of the food stands are Turkish.

not so many , almost all of our main dishes are based over meat , chicken , fishes .
So if I want to be vegan , I will eat only rice and pasta lol and I will be gaining lots of weight.

@Haneen My late wife was from Iran. When she went vegetarian there was little she could eat (so she thought). Her home was Abadan on the Iraq/Iran border so the foods must be similar (a lot of rice dishes). She discovered she could simply leave the meat out and add a few more spices and it worked. Also, it is about paying attention. We visited an Iranian family living in LA. They knew we were vegetarian but didn't know what to make. A vegetarian relative told them about leaving the meat out and emphasizing meat-free items they already had (salads fruit, vegetables). The family were surprised how easy it was.

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