Ethics in a pandemic.
I have read that aiming for herd immunity by just letting the virus spread is unethical by some "expert(s)".
IMO forcing medical treatment on people without consent, like a vaccine, is also unethical.
So I ask when attempting to control a pandemic, what place do ethics have? Should they be factored in? What are "ethics" in this situation anyway? And do all share the same definition and understanding of "ethics".
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Feel free to reply to any comment by clicking the "Reply" button."Forced" immunization? Perhaps not, but we already have coerced vaccination in many quarters, as schools won't allow children to attend who haven't been vaccinated against a number of diseases not nearly as deadly as the Coronavirus. Parents whose child is able to receive the vaccine are left with the choice to home school or get their kids inoculated.
Natural (without vaccines) herd immunity may be a pipe dream. Smallpox existed for thousands of years killing hundreds of millions before a vaccine was discovered centuries ago. But it took a vast, WHO sponsored effort to inoculate the planet and eradicate this scourge. COVID's just getting started, as we're already seeing signs of a second wave. The Spanish flu had 4 waves.
Ethics are inevitably situational but often come down to numbers. Here it seems to me that the needs of the many [compromised individuals who are unable to be vaccinated] outweigh the needs of the one [who, on some principle, refuses to be vaccinated]. Once a vaccine is widely available, until this disease is eradicated, those who refuse it should live like the Amish, isolated from the rest of society.
p-nullifidian
Level 8
Oct 13, 2020
3
I joyously isolate from society. Going the store makes me grouchy as Hell.
@powder Agreed. Never gotten a flu shot in my life. The stats I've seen on flu vaccines range from 40-60%, so it's essentially a coin toss. Gotta do better for the COVID vaccine!
I know of a nurse who was confirmed Covid-19 and later tested antibodies to Covid-19. So management scheduled her with all the Covid-19 patients and then she got Covid-19 Again (a different strain) and was much sicker the second time. The amount of strains are unknown and a vaccine would have to encompass many different strains whilst not causing the disease
Doubtful
Timetraveler
Level 1
Oct 12, 2020
0
From what I understand, the vaccine's being developed are different to just the development of the bodies antibodies. They attack the core functions of the virus and so will affect all current mutations.
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With this particular virus, natural immunity doesn't stick around long enough to ever achieve herd immunity. The only way to achieve it is an effective vaccine. Which makes it even more unethical to allow hundreds of thousands of people to die for a wholly unattainable goal such as herd immunity. I've also not heard anything outside of conspiracy theory to suggest forced vaccination in any country resembling a democracy.
Amzungu
Level 8
Oct 12, 2020
2
@powder But it's not similar to the flu in that respect. With the flu, when you contract a particular strain, you do get long term immunity from that strain. The problem with flu is that it mutates so quickly that the vaccine only protrudes against the most common and virulent stains that are currently circulating. Those strains change year to year which is why you need a flu sky yearly for maximum protection. With the current coronavirus, what makes herd immunity unattainable is not that it mutates too quickly but that the immunity acquired is not long term. Current research shows that your antibodies diminish within months. So at best, you're getting a few months of immunity. Herd immunity simply isn't achievable under those circumstances without an effective vaccine that will provide longer term immunity.
I would also disagree that you didn't have a choice to get a flu vaccine, and that no one is using visitation as a lever to force your hand but as a protection for your loved one who lives in a care home. You had a choice to not get one and they have a choice to not let you put the people at risk that they are responsible for. It's the same with mandated childhood vaccines which have saved millions of children's lives from common communicable diseases known to predominantly kill children under the age of 5. No one mandated them to hold power over someone, they are mandated to protect the millions of children that exist in the world. I'm all for forcing home school on those who decline, citing only their right to choose. Yes, they can choose, but they should not be allowed to put the entire community of children at greater risk for their right to choose. Choices have consequences. There's no getting around that, but I'm all for the people making a choice being the ones to suffer the consequences and not being allowed to force the consequences of their choice on others.
My doctor has already said that if I get it I probably won't survive it so I am expendable in accordance with herd immunity, but expect a fight.
I don't think ethics usually need to be argued between compassionate, conscientious adults, but adding conservatives to the mix certainly muddies the waters.
LovinLarge
Level 8
Oct 12, 2020
0
@powder I don't think a doctor can or would make that type of prospective diagnosis. It's completely different from knowing in advance that covid will be very serious for someone with a compromised immune system and preexisting respiratory conditions.
And don't undermine this view as only my perspective because it applies to anyone who is particularly vulnerable to COVID. Just ask those 200,000+ dead Americans.
There always have been and always will be limits on freedoms as they interfere with the freedoms of other members of the community. Membership in the community is a privilege, not a right.
Take 2,000 IU per day vitamin D. You can also take zinc, C, N'acetylcysteine and stop eating sugar to help lower your chance of infection. Google "astaxanthin cytokine storm"
@Timetraveler Will investigate, thank you.
Those who want the vaccine can get it... Those who don't want to vaccinate can take their chances with herd immunity... Guess which will have more deaths....
Cutiebeauty
Level 9
Oct 12, 2020
2
No one is forcing vaccination on anyone, but don't expect your freedom to move in public to remain completely unfettered if you don't get one or cannot prove immunity. It's like if you choose not to put brakes on your car - knock yourself out driving on your own property but go out on the open highway and expect to rapidly encounter issues that will land you in jail.
Personally I think it is unethical for people who knowingly have the virus and expose others to it - we should be arresting them for felony reckless endangerment or even attempted manslaughter.
prometheus
Level 7
Oct 12, 2020
5
@powder reality check, you don't die of the common cold. And for sure if you lie about your HIV status and sleep with some... this has been prosecuted before.
@powder I guess you skipped epidemiology 101 or you would realize the common cold is a virus, and pneumonia is lung infection, usually bacterial.
Chances of dying from COVID-19 if you are over 65 are orders of magnitude higher than from the common cold. Statistics don't lie.
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