If he's not telling the truth Trump can sue him. I see no reason for him to lie. And "sight" was not the only sense that was used to validate his claims. As he tells it, he was in the room many times when it happened and there was also sound and scent to validate the claim.

@redbai Neither matters, dude. What you see a reason for, or don't, has zero bearing. Maybe you are missing something? I miss aspects of things that make me see a greater truth and 45's lies are carefully crafted to justify laws which Senators go along with. An entire nation tells kids the lie about Santa Claus, an egg hiding rabbit, and a money giving Tooth Fairy so lying is part of the American way. I would lie about wearing a diaper, if I had to wear one, and remind you that FDR couldn't stand up. Many folks have physical problems that don't affect their job capability so not for me to comment on. Doing so only makes people scoff at my other ideas. The indication that Agent Orange is likely a Russian asset is of MUCH greater concern for me. Was this "scent" coming from 45 or someone else in the room? IDK and IDC. It may be funny, in a juvenile sense, but it's not my business.

Agreed. I hate Trump as much if not more than most people but I don't see the relevance of his alleged incontinence, in fact I don't think it's appropriate to bring it up and therefore weakens the case against him. Thanks for your input.

@LovinLarge I find pity for demonstrably disgusting human beings a reason why they get away with disgusting behavior. I think people should be treated as they treat others and his mockery of the disabled and oppressed makes him fodder for public ridicule.

@rainmanjr ...and I'm sick of hearing about how Trump should be treated as if he's not the disgusting human being he is and ridiculed as the hypocrite and failure that he displays himself to be every day. Pointing out flaws actually inhibit others from acting in the same manner in the future. But if a person believes that they deserve the respect of others regardless of their actions, and people give it, that's a path for more people, just like Trump, to use for a success that harms others and leads to the kinds of things you say you're more concerned about.

It's the same kind of pathetic logic that inhibited people from calling him a racist while his behavior stoked racist attitudes all over the country until they overflowed into the streets once again. People didn't know what was "in his heart", so they couldn't call him a racist just because of his behavior and comments. I'm tired of tiptoeing around the disgusting behavior of people out of some insulting display of "decency" when it is not returned in the least.

@redbai You oppose his mockery of the disabled by mocking his alleged disability. It lowers you to his level.

There are a plethora of things to legitimately mock him for, it's unnecessary and inappropriate to resort to this because it weakens the case against him when you are trying to strengthen it. You are better than this.

@LovinLarge I don't care about artificial "levels", I care about the truth and reality.

That man is "admired" as some kind of superman who can do no wrong by 10s of millions of people. That admiration endangers lives. Maybe not yours, but I have family and friends whose lives are threatened by the America that disgusting human being and his followers are attempting to create. I will not have sympathy for someone who doesn't give a damn about me or the lives of those I care for and love. That's just stupid and I for one am tired of acting as if he's not the danger to humanity that he is. I find no reason at all not to do everything I can to make sure that admiring a man like him makes no sense whatsoever to an intelligently thinking human being. I see nothing wrong with using every tool available to bring him down and destroy his followers admiration.

Worrying about being brought down to his level is a privilege.

@redbai Your mockery of his disability legitimizes his mockery of the disabled. If he was wrong to do it, so are you.

@redbai I have no issue with the argument that the fake POTUS is a danger we must address. I do have argument with what weakens efforts to make people see the danger. Insulting their sense of self-being apparently doesn't work well from a strategic POV. It's fun, and funny, but it doesn't change a single solitary mind. Since that's more my goal than being funny, as it relates to the danger 45 represents, I drop the name calling (racist) and try to address their logic directly. Yes, they are using logic as they have learned to construct it. It might work to deconstruct it if I show more empathy for their humanity. Believe it or not most of them do have a sense of humanity. I think it's been corrupted, as senses often become for us all, by life's indoctrinations and can still be redirected. All I have to do that is by relating what I've found for my senses in an honest, calm, direct manner.

@LovinLarge Then I'm wrong. I'm not being hypocritical about it at all. I don't care if I'm wrong in this scenario. I'm not a perfect human being, but I am not a disgusting human being and in no way does my mocking him in this way bring me down to his level. He has traits that I don't have that brings him down further and I am aware of them and will call them out.

He's a bigot too where he degrades others for aspects of their lives in which they have no choice like the color of their skin or where they were born. I don't do that.

He's a sexual predator bragging about raping and molesting women. I don't do that.

He's known as a person who doesn't pay his bills. I do.

He's known as a prolific liar. I am not.

I could go on, but the point is that mocking him for one thing does not "bring me down to his level". He has disgusting depths that have never been considered in my life. What it does is show that I am not perfect, a point I am perfectly willing to concede.

@rainmanjr Do you have any idea how insulting it is to a black person to hear you pontificate about trying to relate to racists? To try and "change their minds" by not insulting them with name calling? To hear about the "humanity" of people rationalizing shooting unarmed black people and voting for a POTUS who couldn't see anything wrong with choking a black man to death on video for the world to see. FTR, with 70 million people voting for him, how well has that BS worked so far?

And what is this "logic" that you claim they are using? What "logic" takes children from their parent and separates them in cages that isn't inhumane? What "logic" rationalizes shooting a black man in the back while he's reaching into his car where his kids are sitting in the back seat? The idea that they are using "logic" as opposed to simply reacting emotionally as they have been programmed to react all their lives because of how they were raised is self serving pap to justify your POV. The idea that you, with some "logic" and avoiding hurting their feelings is going to change that is insultingly ridiculous and naive to the experiences of POC.

@LovinLarge Nope, I don't. For one, the "imperfection" is specific to a person and not any group. Secondly, I think it's more important to bring him down in the eyes of the public than to pamper any ridiculous sense of personal moral superiority over a person who has a whole list of disgusting character traits. Especially if he has the admiration of 10s of millions of people.

Like I said. I'm human, not some perfect robot. I have no problem with ridiculing a demonstrably disgusting human being so that respect for that person is diminished in the eyes of the public. You obviously feel differently. If that makes you feel better, I'm not opposed to that at all. It makes no difference in my life in the least.

@redbai So you want racists to change their ways while you, an ableist, have admitted that you are not interested in changing yours. Another losing strategy.

@redbai You might want to have a listen to this. Some good ideas Goldie pontificates on. No, she's not black so maybe an idea which calls into question the general mental health of this society misses their specific experience but oh well. You're not white so can't really relate to mine.

@LovinLarge I think the idea that you equate my ridiculing a single demonstrable disgusting individual to racism to be an very good demonstration of the ignorance of the manifestation of racism. FTR, my ridicule of Donald Trump does not relate in any way to the systematic oppression of millions of black people for 450 years around the world and I challenge you to demonstrate it does.

Ridiculing a demonstrable disgusting human being for his failures or weaknesses is not remotely the same as justifying the forced labor and imprisonment of millions of Americans for generations. No where in showing this video is there any way to interpret anything in it as a failing that should allow the dehumanization of millions of people. Your sense of proportion seems to be flawed.

@redbai Sure, my "sense of proportion" is flawed because you think it is okay for you to mock disabled people.

I believe you are the worst obfuscator I have ever encountered. Keep digging that hole.

@rainmanjr All you're doing by posting that video is the same as a theist telling me to go read the bible. You're assuming that I should get the same message from it that you did. Actually, you're not even doing that as you admit that there might be a difference in experience based on our race, so you're basically just condescendingly brushing me off.

That's cool as I have no real point to make here. Trump shits his pants. Nothing in the dialog so far changes that simple fact. Putting nicks in the armor or racists is a guilt-free pleasure I will not deny myself as I don't have the privilege of ignoring the results of their work in the world.

@LovinLarge I believe that you're pathetic attempts to defend Trump are bordering on being as disgusting as he is. Again, demonstrate that ANYTHING I have said equates to the act of racists who have killed and enslaved millions. Demonstrate that pointing out that a disgusting human being shits his pants is the same as validating slavery, Jim Crow, and the mass incarceration of POC and the plunder of Africa for 500 years.

You can't. You're simply making ridiculous comparisons because you apparently have no idea the real effects of racism in this country. Why don't you explain how exposing that the POTUS shits his pants, a condition caused by his own choices and actions, is going to force millions with the same condition into systemic oppression and murder by the police? You can't and you won't try because it's ridiculous on its face.

You think I'm wrong for trying to bring down a demonstrably disgusting human being whose actions are responsible for the deaths of 10s of thousands of Americans with a following of 10s of millions and it apparently bothers you that I don't care. Well, I still don't.

@redbai You use way too many words to say way too little, most of which is irrelevant to this thread. Anyone who reads this thread now knows that:

1. You mock disabled people while criticizing others for doing the same; and
2. You expect others to abstain from prejudice when you don't expect the same of yourself.

You think you are advancing the progressive movement when in fact you are a hindrance because of the manner in which you conduct yourself.

@redbai We’ve had a brush up before that ended with me brushing you off. Yes, I’m doing it again. The reason being that you are not only seeing our arguments about what you’re doing but getting madder. I’M NOT TELLING YOU TO DO ANYTHING OR GET THE SAME MEANING I GOT. I put up a video that I found interesting that has to do with a subject that would help everyone, including you, but whether you take my prescription is up to you. Not me. I don’t ultimately care about you. I know that’s shocking but it’s true. I care about my growth concerning racism so, for a while, you’re argument was interesting but it’s not anymore. That’s why I’m saying Uncle. Zen will take care of the rest for you and me.

@rainmanjr So how did you decide that I was "mad" let alone "madder"? The condescending nerve to assume you can define my emotional state is insulting and a pathetic attempt at dismissing my arguments as "emotional" so that you don't have to actually address them, as you've avoided this entire dialog.

Then pile on the pomposity of "prescribing" me some kind of solution that imagine I have. As if you've some insight to my life that allows you the ability to diagnose anything relevant in my life.

You're wrong that I don't "see" your arguments, I think they are naive and ignores the reality of non-white people. Somehow pointing that out implies "anger" instead of a reality you have the privilege of ignoring (as you've so clumsily done here) with your high minded solutions that ignore the obvious.

Here's a clue. Before you can "learn" anything about racism, you'll have to admit your don't know everything about it. You might try that as a first step.

@LovinLarge Where did I say anything about "advancing the progressive movement"? I didn't. Just like comparing me to racists, now you're putting words in my mouth and attacking the straw men that you create doing it. Your purposeful avoidance of addressing anything I've said demonstrates that you are one of those "liberals" who spend more time telling the oppressed how to act instead of listening so you can supply knee-jerk reactions that you think demonstrate your wokeness.

I use lots of words because nuance is a relevant aspect of reality and details matter. Your avoidance of the "to many words" that define that nuance is an affliction of the ignorant trying to avoid reality.

@redbai You are a fraud.

@rainmanjr He is uneducable.

@LovinLarge ... and your opinion of me does absolutely nothing that diminishes or contradicts a thing I've said. You've simply resorted to third party personal attacks, something I would think you're "above". LOL!!

The hubris to believe that you're some kind of "educator" is exactly the kind of pomposity that "liberals" use to justify their POV while ignoring the issues of POC. Thanks for the demonstration of how to be liberal and condescending at the same time. Nothing new in America, it's one of the main reasons things like bigotry still exists.

Go find a way to relate to the racist and "understand" their needs and wants to "get along" with them. I'll shun their disgusting behavior until they decide to be decent human beings. I'm not so naive as to believe that after more than 400 years of power they are going to give in to "logic" and nice words. But then I don't have he luxury of assuming they are benign until we "get to them".

@redbai I'm sorry, you have no credibility and I have no interest in your incoherent ramblings.

@LovinLarge I get that he's mad and am sympathetic to his pain but....oh, look. Isn't that Jackson Browne over there? Nice meeting you, @redbai, but I'm gone.

@redbai Having read through this thread just now, and seen points made by all, I think my conclusion is this:

If the tale told in the video is true, it still is largely irrelevant. It might even be counterproductive. Trumpism is a cult, and attacking the cult leader causes the troops to rally.

Where it might have a value is demonstrating the terrible insecurity of Trump for those who aren't completely in his camp. I agree with @LovinLarge, as I understood her point: Trump's fear of his own weaknesses is what makes him boast and what makes him insult and degrade others. The video clearly demonstrates his hypocrisy, for those who haven't already seen it.

I also agree with @LovinLarge on this point: Trump would be a pitiful figure if he weren't so very dangerous. The danger is that he somehow commands the loyalty of millions, very many of whom actually have the intelligence to know better. If there is some way to make clear to those followers what a pitiful clown their leader is, without simultaneously evoking their automatic tribal defensive reaction, it could begin to break the cult down. But it will be no easy task. His cult is already willfully blind to his tens of thousands of lies; they see the way he insults and hates as positive features of his personality, not a bug.

I think we do need to find some way to attack Trumpism, without attacking Trump himself, if we're ever going to put an end to it. But as for tactical ideas, I don't have any that are tested and proven yet. I simply tell the truth to people in my personal life who I know are on the other side of the fence, and encourage them to learn more for themselves. Some are willing to keep talking and listening, and I hope eventually they will break themselves away. This is a battle for one person at a time, as well as for the soul of our nation. The two are indistinguishable to me.

I wish I had any kind of reply on the race issues, but all I can do is try to learn more and do better. I try to pay attention to my own assumptions and my own actions, and see myself as others do. I try to bring it to others' attention when their actions or attitudes show a bias. It's a very slow process, here in this very red corner of my state. Sometimes it's lonely. I find myself asking some of the prisoners that I supervise to check me and let me know if I'm conducting myself fairly or if I'm showing any kind of bias. It encourages me that they tell me I'm the fairest and most decent officer they've met; but I know internally that I can still be better, because everyone can. It's an unjust system, but I'm doing what I can to change it from within.

@Paul4747 I'm constantly amazed at how some people can compartmentalize Trumpism and Racism as if they are different things and must be addressed separately. Must be a privilege garnered to those who aren't affected by the manifestations of the disgusting practice.

As far as the video. I'm so tired of caring what Trumpesters might do that it's pathetic. Who cares if they "rally"? Are you under the assumption that they aren't already doing that? All this hand wringing about what all these racists will do is disgusting and cowardly and demonstrates a fear of them over the concern for those they wish to oppress. It manifests as the oppressed being told to deal with it until the racists come around. While everyone is trying to find a way to bring these racists into the fold and not upset the racist leadership, POC, LBGTQ and immigrants are being ignored, oppressed and killed.

The idea that any respect should be accorded to them is insulting to everyone they deny equal citizenship.

@Paul4747 Paul, thank you very much for the time and effort you took to read through this thread and respond to it.

Racism predates Trump and will outlive him. I recognize racism as an epidemic in this country. A couple of days ago I posted about a racist member with a racist profile right here on this website. But in this thread racism was used to distract from the OP's justification of his ableism. His cries of discrimination while he discriminates against others are illegitimate. He is as much a bigot as any other bigot.

@LovinLarge Trump was not born with his incontinence, it's a result of choices he made in his life. If he hadn't lived the lifestyle he lived, he wouldn't be having the problems he's having now. The idea that a fucking millionaire who is also a demostrable disgusting human being is somehow a "victim" is the
most ignorant and stupidest thing I've ever heard and reads like a pathetic attempt at being "woke".

@redbai Incontinence is not a result of choices one's made in their life, it's a naturally-occuring medical condition that could eventually affect anyone and everyone . You're not just a bigot, you're a grossly misinformed bigot disseminating disinformation. You are no better than the racists you condemn.

Have someone you trust read this thread and they will tell you the same.

@LovinLarge "Incontinence is not a result of choices one's made in their life."

Really? Prove that. Everything I've read says it has to do with what you eat and whether or not you've exercised to keep yourself in shape enough for the muscles to work correctly. Or if you've done something that damages or weakens those muscles that control bowel function like abusing drugs. Everyone DOES NOT get it, so it is not a "naturally-occuring medical condition". It happens for a reason.

@redbai You're not only a bigot, you're a liar.

[mayoclinic.org]

@LovinLarge Ah. So you're one of those people who post a link pretending that it proves their point. No where on that cite does it say that it is a "naturally-occuring medical condition". But you've managed to call me a liar (which you haven't proven) and a bigot (based on disagreeing with you apparently).

@redbai The link discusses the causes of bowel incontinence and none of them are based on personal choice. Now you've not only lied about the causes, you're intentionally misrepresenting the evidence.

From what I've seen of you, you are one of the worst if not the worst person I have encountered on this website. You will be afforded no credibility by anyone who reads this thread.

@LovinLarge What a load of garbage. Both constipation and diarrhea are not "natural", they are a result of what you put in your body and the lack of exercise. Also, if it were "natural" it would occur in everyone and it doesn't. Explain why this "natural event" doesn't happen to everyone or else your argument is BS. Your pathetic attempts at trying to find sympathy for an incredibly disgusting human being is ridiculous. Your disingenuous claims that my comments about Trump demonstrates bigotry is not supported in the least. Pointing out that a single individual shits his pants is not bigotry and your BS attempt doesn't prove I've lied in the least.

@redbai His medical problems, for whatever reason, have nothing to do with his ability to perform as a Chief Executive of u$A. That's still the bottom line (a pun to lighten your smelly claim) and that's all my original comment was about. You insist on giving this poor women a hard time out of ego and should stop. You seem mad by using all caps and using snotty language to address us but then tell us you're not mad. That makes you also seem disingenuous. In the future I'll ignore you and not reply to anything you say. Okay? Does that satisfy your need to be superior against 45? Don't be disheartened by your not achieving that, in my eyes, because I think most humans don't. We are almost 100% full of shit as a species. You just happen to demonstrate it.

@redbai I have supported my position with evidence, you have not. You have mocked a medical condition while complaining about others doing the same. You have railed against racism while committing ableism. You have lied while accusing me of lying. You have admitted your shortcomings but refused to do anything about them. You have abused the concept of racism by using it to distract ftom your practice of ableism. There is something very wrong with you.

You are someone I would not engage inn real time and your time is up here, too. Blocked.