Approved for men to instigate a divorce, but noth the women.

@snytiger6 no, sorry, it is traditional for the woman to instigate it. if that has changed, it is a NEW change, NOT tradition.

g

@genessa

I don't know much about this, but, looking into it, am running into conflicting points. For example

• my mom had to give my dad a get, so he could get re-married (Conservative schul). In microcosm, this would seem to buttress the idea that a woman has some control, at least in some situations.

• On the other hand, this page seems at odds with the notion that Jewish women have had that much say so in the matter:

[brandeis.edu]
By Lawrence GoodmanDec. 5, 2018
Lisa Fishbayn JoffeLisa Fishbayn Joffe
"....For most of Jewish history, one law has held supreme for divorce: only the man can declare a marriage over. While they’ve developed workarounds, both Conservative and Orthodox Judaism still accept this principle.

• This page purports to give some of the history of the matter, and while it shows some historical empowerment of women, it seems they still are not treated equally, historically:

[jewishvirtuallibrary.org]
"While divorce is not looked at favorably in Judaism, it is by no means prohibited and, in certain cases, it is even encouraged.

"The rabbis of the Talmud considered marriage a holy contract, and the dissolution of marriage an unholy act. They quote the prophet Malachi, “. . .the Lord has been witness between you and your wife of your youth against whom you have dealt treachorously, though she is your companion, the wife of your covenant” (2:14). Jewish Oral Law added in Sanhedrin (22a), “Even [G-d] shares tears when anyone divorces his wife.”

"In biblical law, a husband has the right to divorce his wife but a wife cannot initiate a divorce. About 1,000 years ago, Rebbeinu Gershom ben Yehuda (965-1028) decreed that a husband could no longer divorce his wife without her consent. This decision was accepted as binding by European Jewry.

"A Jewish religious court can compel the husband to grant a divorce when there is a just case, such as when a husband refuses to have marital relations, when he does not provide adequately for her support, when he is unfaithful, when he is a wife-beater, or when he has a loathsome disease, such as leprosy, etc. [....]

@kmaz I suspect there are different Jewish sects that differ in practices.

@snytiger6

I suspect you're right in the present day, and maybe that was also true historically. @genessa has raised an interesting question of whether we can get some sort of working summary of what the rules were going back hundreds of years or even one or two millennia. So, that seemed worth looking into. I like that she raised the question and I'm ignorant of most of the history here.

not really, since for centuries and centuries divorce is a normal, approved procedure in judaism, and i do mean orthodox judaism. someone is interpreting their own religion incorrectly, just as christians do these days.

g

1. I didn't much care for the tv show the sopranos, but in the first few episodes (maybe the pilot?) there was a scene were Tony and crew are trying to beat it out of an orthodox Jewish guy to give the get, but the guy is stubborn. It's a somewhat memorable (to me) verbal interchange they have.

2. The other thing I want to say here is that the contrast between, and co-existence of, civil and religious law is IMO kind of interesting. Often this comes up with respect to marriage. The Jewish cases of getting the get have come up sometimes, but also there are Muslim cases, I think, but I can't remember details.