And then you wised up.

Well, I guess it makes more sense than Scientology or Trumpism. No pain, no gain.

@anglophone Yes. And I'm VERY glad that I did wise up.

@UrsiMajor Everything makes more sense than Scientology and Trumpism. Mormonism is not much better. It is really weird when you look into it.

Exactly!

I would add that actually talking to them, presenting your case for what you do believe to be true (that's a rather important aspect for any chance of their leaving the LDS) and avoiding the pitfalls of how their ideas are illogical or wrong, while being nice is how minds actually change. Again, just not in the moment. Eventually the Church becomes afraid of you. That's when persecutions start or they leave you entirely alone.

Asatru sounds like either a Pokemon or Godzilla character! Epic!

@UrsiMajor It does sound like it would be that, however it's the religion of the Norse people (Vikings).
[icelandmag.is]

Did they think there was a difference? If you aren't willing to entertain their delusion is because the devil - Satan - has a strong hold on you. Sort of like the Dark Side from Star Wars.

@RussRAB it doesn't matter. I told them to GTFO.

@barjoe - Trust me, I understand. Nothing is as annoying than having someone interrupt your day coming to your door to sell you their delusion.

@RussRAB If they just ask for money, I give them a couple bucks to just get rid of them. If they proselytise, then l get rude.

@barjoe - The sale price is more than just money, although cash is generally part of what is expected. Total life devotion is often more along the line of the overall expectation.

@RussRAB For their boss it's the money. The money is butter for their schtick and does, in fact, keep them operating. I wouldn't do that, @barjoe, and encourage you to not.

@rainmanjr It depends. If they are locals, I donate. There are hundreds of people living on my block, they could be neighbors. Kids selling candy, I buy it. If they proselytise, I practically slam the door. I used to get Mormons, haven't seen those kids for years.

Wonder if we could invoke Tom Cruise. Either a lecture from his Scientology or his Risky Business performance could get them out of there.

@UrsiMajor Not in this county. We do have a bunch of religious idiots here that drive around in a huge red hummer. Most of us see them for what they are, hypocritical fools. Believe it or not this is perhaps the most liberal county in the state and none of us have any problems announcing our atheism.

@JackPedigo What state /county?

@UrsiMajor Washington, San Juan Island county. Actually, we have a restaurant Ursa Minor (I guess there can be only 1 major LOL). [ursaminorlopez.com]

@JackPedigo Washington state has Archipelagos? This place sounds amazing. Definitely want to see this someday...

This has been my discovery week on this forum. I can now add basic geography to my unintended learning along with idiot-level history. Thanks all.

@JackPedigo I will announce it anywhere, or outright flaunt it, whether it’s the most religious area or not.

@UrsiMajor The ex-wife and I had a beach picnic lunch while driving down Whitbey Island and the entire day was awesome. I lived in Tacoma for a year, drove Uber during that time, so learned a bit about the mindsets in WA. They're very polite but, if they think you're a like mindset, one discovers many are more conservative than you'd guess. Especially among the Gen X and Millennials. I was surprised by things they said among each other in my car.

@UrsiMajor LOL did you see my recent posting titled Washington 100? This state has more islands than any other state in the contiguous US. The ferry system is the largest in the country and the third largest in the world. Our archipelago/county has some 175 named islands (those that are visible above high tide) 4 of the largest are ferry served. Many of the counties in W. Washington have islands and 1 county, Island county is composed of one large island, Whidbey. Slightly to the NW of us are the Gulf Islands which are a part of British Columbia. They have 5 ferry served island one of which, Salt Spring Island actually has 3 ferry terminals. Often the Washington State ferry system interacts with the BC ferry system. Combined this would make this the largest in the world. [wa100.dnr.wa.gov]
Here's a bit about the Gulf Islands. There are 200 of them. [gulfislandstourism.com]

I wonder if there are certain things they can't eat. I wonder if shellfish or kosher or meat on Fridays gets involved. I'd make magic brownies and tell them whatever it is they can't eat is in there. Someday, we'll all be retired, but they are not getting any of my MJ magic brownies. That stash is for me when drug tests are a thing of the past!

When my father was on his death bed some of his final words were, "I want all of the psychics, therapists, and spiritualists outta here!"

@UrsiMajor
My mother, who passed years earlier, was very devout. She taught genealogy at the Mormon Temple in Mesa.

I always wondered how they stayed together for 50 years. I suspect that my father's choose-for-yourself attitude was a big part of it. She was not religious when I was younger.

Another good idea would be to try to sell them some Avon products or Lulu clothes. Maybe some Cindy Crawford skin care sets.

It won’t.

Don't hold back, tell them what's on your mind.

@UrsiMajor I was gentler with the last pair of Morons that knocked on my door: I merely pointed out their logical fallacy of special pleading for their particular god. They ran away as fast as their legs could carry them, and they have never returned.

The more I think about it, the more fun I think we could have with this. A few upside down crosses, some red food coloring. A bunch of people standing around chanting, yea Satan, Oh Satan..."

@UrsiMajor hahaha. That would be funny, but there’s more joy in watching them slowly squirm to explain their position as you continue to ask them to explain the understandable logic in it.
I never beat anyone up for their religious beliefs. In my head maybe a bit... or a lot, but I just want them to really really think about it.

@CourtJester Something tells me you're the right man for that job...

@UrsiMajor I don’t know. I’ve never gotten them to the point of having glasses of scotch with me, but I’ve seen them look at the floor and say “I really don’t know”. And that’s enough

One, or both, of them might have but people don't show it in the moment. It happens as we're trying to fall asleep.

I've had long experience with LDS and even got baptised as one at age 27 (or so). I then happened to take a college Ethics class which led to reading The Age Of Reason (Payne). I finished the last line and became a Deist. Getting out of the LDS Church wasn't just a "So long" thing. I threatened to argue my case openly against Missionaries sent to persuade me to stay and they finally ex-communicated me.

@rainmanjr I had taken a course on Western civilization, which had included the history of religion, and having been through that class helped me become the Agnostic I am today.

The incident then was quite silly, because the 3 Mormons that had stopped me had also brought along a Christian who they were also trying to convince before speaking to me, lol. Hopefully, that after all of the contradictions I tried to show them, they were able to question their beliefs. After that moment which was about 5 years ago I don't recall seeing Mormons ever again.

Well, that's certainly taking the high road and getting something (possibly) accomplished. I'm amazed with some of the patience others have with conservatives and they use their knowledge as power without being condescending instead of terrorizing people. Something to think about.

@UrsiMajor There's a familiar, well accepted saying that 'we are what we eat'.
that we consist of what we consume (let in). The same principle applies to the intangibles. The notions and ideas about things that we accept eventually become the socially functional composition that we call ourselves; usually by some adopted name or classification like Christian, Communist, Hindu, racial, sexual, ethnic or other type supremacist are some of my favorite labels.

When what we've consumed as being 'so', whether voluntarily or force fed, attacks on or criticisms of our 'isms' are tantamount to personal assault. Since most isms are cultish and fear based, the mental shields go up right away and there is no penetrating them. The task, as I see it, is to stimulate the very processes that people surrender or abdicate in order to become an 'ist' in the first place. Get them thinking. Plant seeds that will germinate at the right season of their confinement.

There is also a physical : mental comparison that works for me; though no few orthodox psychologists have objected. It is the functionally identical comparison of a phenomenon occurring in physical captivity that correspondingly occurs in mental - programmed - captivity. Stockholm Syndrome is a reaction over time to physical confinement wherein one surrenders self, taking on shared identity with a captor. It is fear based and the same kind of melding of identity takes place with ideological and other cult captives. They strongly identify with that which holds them prisoner and no walls or bars are required. They can be monitored and controlled by fear of being 'seen' as incompatible with doctrines by peers and even more so, leaders.

This is why labels serve to confuse and actions and outcomes clarify. Application of common functional principle to analysis of actions discloses how much, allegedly different isms really are alike. Among the root 'bars and walls' of ideological cults one finds slavish abdication of reasoning faculties as part of the price of admission. The key to intellectual and therefore LIVING freedom is thinking. Reasoning can open the mental locks and it can be started by planting seeds that germinate via frustrations and identify conflicting cognitions within both the individual and the cult. It doesn't work with everyone and never works without the all important mother of Truth, called Time.

@Silver1wun How would you handle a Nazi?

@UrsiMajor Fear based cults vary, like any other groupings, by degrees of intensity and layers of indoctrination. Within more militant fanatic cults dangers are most intense because the price paid by apostates can be life itself, whereas with less intensity repercussions aren't so final. With organized ( rather than merely ideological) supremacists reasoning is no longer a realistic option. There is no 'handling'. Cults in state (regime) form efficiently liquidate any who fall too far out of line. That is the Achilles heel of the political Zionists right now. For all their racial and religious supremacy, they oddly are helpless to do more than rough-up and demonize internal 'refuseniks' and critics. If they were as efficient as their erstwhile tormenters, they'd have already wiped out populations in 'Greater Israel' with ease decades ago.

I guess the easy handling answer is 'it depends on the duration and intensity of infection'.

@Silver1wun

And there's why such arguments don't work.

@rainmanjr I don't see what you are calling an argument. It is an observation, that is, observable based on understanding of illogical atheist Richard Dawkin's mind virus organism in view on statements written in biblical text and observable with in the cultures and cultures currently observable in human populations.

Culture used twice for meaning both definitions (or senses) of the word.

1. the customs, arts, social institutions, and achievements of a particular nation, people, or other social group.

2. the cultivation of bacteria, tissue cells, etc. in an artificial medium containing nutrients.