GEORGE PACKER IS PERHAPS THE MOST HIGHLY REGARDED WRITER AND THINKER ON AMERICA SINCE WALKER LIPMAN'S 1922 MANUFACTURE OF CONSENT

This conversation first appeared in Notes From the Editor in Chief, a monthly newsletter that brings readers inside The Atlantic; it has been condensed and edited for clarity.

Jeff: You’ve written entire books on this general subject, but try to answer this question in a couple of lines: What causes you to worry the most about America’s future as a unified, coherent country?

George: We Americans don’t just disagree with one another. We don’t just have different values, narratives, and perceptions of truth. We actually see one another as moral threats, incompatible with all that we consider good, and we fantasize about a country in which the threats are no longer around. Not to be melodramatic, but you can recognize this kind of thinking in countries that fall into civil war.

Jeff: You think we’re actually heading to civil war?

George: Not likely, not with violence on a large scale. More like a cold civil war that continues to erode democracy, make every election seem existential, and prevent us from solving our major problems, with long-term decline.

Jeff: Are there, in your mind, credible, discernible off-ramps?

George: I see three ways this could change. One is separation (not actual secession, but red and blue areas having more and more political autonomy). Another is conquest (one side wins a decisive majority). Neither of these seems very tenable. The third off-ramp is more complex but more feasible: government-led improvements in people’s lives, a reversal of the inequality that’s at the root of much of our disunion, along with socially binding ideas like universal national service and better K–12 education (civics!).

Jeff: Reversing “the inequality that’s at the root of our disunion” seems like a pretty big damn thing. But put that aside: How do you convince people that (a) selfless national service and a universal civics agenda could, or should, be done?

George: Becoming more equal as Americans is a huge thing. What matters is that we start moving in the right direction—and I think in recent months we’ve begun. As for national service and universal civics (though not a national curriculum, which would probably self-destruct), they would take some explaining, some persuading. But I don’t think they’re impossible. Majorities of both Democrats and Republicans rate civic education as the single best way to strengthen American identity, and there’s a bipartisan bill in Congress to spend $1 billion on U.S. history and civics. Maybe Americans are beginning to grasp that a Thirty Years’ War between the red and the blue is not the best way to remain a strong democracy. Maybe there’s an untapped, even unconscious desire, especially among younger people, to be asked to do something larger than themselves. We’ll never know until we try.

BUT WHAT SHOULD WE DO? WHAT'S AT THE ROOT OF THE INEQUALITY? THE RIGHT DIRECTION?

YES, THE COPS NEED CONTROLLING, THEY HAVE ALWAYS HAD A SUBSTANTIAL NUMBER OF SOCIOPATHS IN THEIR RANKS. YES, SLAVERY IS AMERICAS ORIGINAL SIN. BUT THE PROBLEM IS MUCH MORE COMPLEX THAN THAT, IT'S NOT A MEDIEVAL PUPPET SHOW OF GOOD GUYS AND BAD GUYS. THE FLOYD BLM EXTORTION HAS BLOWN INTO SOMETHING MUCH MORE FUNDAMENTAL AND OMINOUS. DO WE SIMPLY PAY THEM OFF, LIKE AT FALLUJAH, AND ACCEDE TO THEIR MYTH MAKING LIES? CAN THAT BUY THEIR EQUALITY FOR THEM? IF WE TRY, ISN'T THAT THE MOST INSIDIOUS FORM OF RACISM NOT YET DEFINED IN THIS AGE OF DAILY NEW RACISMS? LAST WEEK THE NPR / BLM SHILLS PROPOSED A 16 TRILLION DOLLAR PROGRAM TO " ENCOURAGE BLACK ENTREPRENEURS ". MEANWHILE THE ICE CAPS ARE MELTING. ............. OR SHOULD WE, WITH ALL DUE DILIGENCE AND GOOD WILL, HELP THEM TO WEED THEIR OWN GARDEN. A FAKE ILLUSORY PAY- OFF RIOT FEARING EQUALITY? OR ONE WITH SOME HOPE OF BEING REAL?