LINK 5 reasons to suspect that Jesus never existed | Salon.com
First thought was "duh" and then I decided to see what it had to say.
By VALERIE TARICO
AlterNetMost antiquities scholars think that the New Testament gospels are “mythologized history.” In other words, they think that around the start of the first century a controversial Jewish rabbi named Yeshua ben Yosef gathered a following and his life and teachings provided the seed that grew into Christianity.
At the same time, these scholars acknowledge that many Bible stories like the virgin birth, miracles, resurrection, and women at the tomb borrow and rework mythic themes that were common in the Ancient Near East, much the way that screenwriters base new movies on old familiar tropes or plot elements. In this view, a “historical Jesus” became mythologized.
For over 200 years, a wide ranging array of theologians and historians—most of them Christian—analyzed ancient texts, both those that made it into the Bible and those that didn’t, in attempts to excavate the man behind the myth. Several current or recent bestsellers take this approach, distilling the scholarship for a popular audience. Familiar titles include Zealotby Reza Aslan and How Jesus Became Godby Bart Ehrman.
But other scholars believe that the gospel stories are actually “historicized mythology.” In this view, those ancient mythic templates are themselves the kernel. They got filled in with names, places and other real world details as early sects of Jesus worship attempted to understand and defend the devotional traditions they had received.
The notion that Jesus never existed is a minority position. Of course it is! says David Fitzgerald, author of Nailed: Ten Christian Myths That Show Jesus Never Existed at All.For centuries all serious scholars of Christianity were Christians themselves, and modern secular scholars lean heavily on the groundwork that they laid in collecting, preserving, and analyzing ancient texts. Even today most secular scholars come out of a religious background, and many operate by default under historical presumptions of their former faith.
Fitzgerald is an atheist speaker and writer, popular with secular students and community groups. The internet phenom, Zeitgeist the Movie introduced millions to some of the mythic roots of Christianity. But Zeitgeist and similar works contain known errors and oversimplifications that undermine their credibility. Fitzgerald seeks to correct that by giving young people interesting, accessible information that is grounded in accountable scholarship.
More academic arguments in support of the Jesus Myth theory can be found in the writings of Richard Carrier and Robert Price. Carrier, who has a Ph.D. in ancient history uses the tools of his trade to show, among other things, how Christianity might have gotten off the ground without a miracle. Price, by contrast, writes from the perspective of a theologian whose biblical scholarship ultimately formed the basis for his skepticism. It is interesting to note that some of the harshest debunkers of fringe Jesus myth theories like those from Zeitgeist or Joseph Atwill (who tries to argue that the Romans invented Jesus) are from serious Mythicists like Fitzgerald, Carrier and Price.
The arguments on both sides of this question—mythologized history or historicized mythology—fill volumes, and if anything the debate seems to be heating up rather than resolving. A growing number of scholars are openly questioning or actively arguing against Jesus’ historicity. Since many people, both Christian and not, find it surprising that this debate even exists—that credible scholars might think Jesus never existed—here are some of the key points that keep the doubts alive:
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No first century secular evidence whatsoever exists to support the actuality of Yeshua ben Yosef. In the words of Bart Ehrman: “What sorts of things do pagan authors from the time of Jesus have to say about him? Nothing. As odd as it may seem, there is no mention of Jesus at all by any of his pagan contemporaries. There are no birth records, no trial transcripts, no death certificates; there are no expressions of interest, no heated slanders, no passing references – nothing. In fact, if we broaden our field of concern to the years after his death – even if we include the entire first century of the Common Era – there is not so much as a solitary reference to Jesus in any non-Christian, non-Jewish source of any kind. I should stress that we do have a large number of documents from the time – the writings of poets, philosophers, historians, scientists, and government officials, for example, not to mention the large collection of surviving inscriptions on stone and private letters and legal documents on papyrus. In none of this vast array of surviving writings is Jesus’ name ever so much as mentioned.” (pp. 56-57)
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The earliest New Testament writers seem ignorant of the details of Jesus’ life, which become more crystalized in later texts.Paul seems unaware of any virgin birth, for example. No wise men, no star in the east, no miracles. Historians have long puzzled over the “Silence of Paul” on the most basic biographical facts and teachings of Jesus. Paul fails to cite Jesus’ authority precisely when it would make his case. What’s more, he never calls the twelve apostles Jesus’ disciples; in fact, he never says Jesus HAD disciples –or a ministry, or did miracles, or gave teachings. He virtually refuses to disclose any other biographical detail, and the few cryptic hints he offers aren’t just vague, but contradict the gospels. The leaders of the early Christian movement in Jerusalem like Peter and James are supposedly Jesus’ own followers and family; but Paul dismisses them as nobodies and repeatedly opposes them for not being true Christians!
Liberal theologian Marcus Borg suggests that people read the books of the New Testament in chronological order to see how early Christianity unfolded. “Placing the Gospels after Paul makes it clear that as written documents they are not the source of early Christianity but its product. The Gospel -- the good news -- of and about Jesus existed before the Gospels. They are the products of early Christian communities several decades after Jesus' historical life and tell us how those communities saw his significance in their historical context.”
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Even the New Testament stories don’t claim to be first-hand accounts. We now know that the four gospels were assigned the names of the apostles Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John, not written by them. To make matter sketchier, the name designations happened sometime in second century, around 100 years or more after Christianity supposedly began. For a variety of reasons, the practice of pseudonymous writing was common at the time and many contemporary documents are “signed” by famous figures. The same is true of the New Testament epistles except for a handful of letters from Paul (6 out of 13) which are broadly thought to be genuine. But even the gospel stories don’t actually say, “I was there.” Rather, they claim the existence of other witnesses, a phenomenon familiar to anyone who has heard the phrase, my aunt knew someone who . . . .
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The gospels, our only accounts of a historical Jesus, contradict each other.If you think you know the Jesus story pretty well, I suggest that you pause at this point to test yourself with the 20 question quiz at ExChristian.net.
The gospel of Mark is thought to be the earliest existing “life of Jesus,” and linguistic analysis suggests that Luke and Matthew both simply reworked Mark and added their own corrections and new material. But they contradict each other and, to an even greater degree contradict the much later gospel of John, because they were written with different objectives for different audiences. The incompatible Easter stories offer one example of how much the stories disagree.
- Modern scholars who claim to have uncovered the real historical Jesus depict wildly different persons. They include a cynic philosopher, charismatic Hasid, liberal Pharisee, conservative rabbi, Zealot revolutionary, nonviolent pacifist to borrow from a much longer listassembled by Price. In his words (pp. 15-16), “The historical Jesus (if there was one) might well have been a messianic king, or a progressive Pharisee, or a Galilean shaman, or a magus, or a Hellenistic sage. But he cannot very well have been all of them at the same time.” John Dominic Crossan of the Jesus Seminar grumbles that “the stunning diversity is an academic embarrassment.”
For David Fitzgerald, these issues and more lead to a conclusion that he finds inescapable:
Jesus appears to be an effect, not a cause, of Christianity. Paul and the rest of the first generation of Christians searched the Septuagint translation of Hebrew scriptures to create a Mystery Faith for the Jews, complete with pagan rituals like a Lord’s Supper, Gnostic terms in his letters, and a personal savior god to rival those in their neighbors’ longstanding Egyptian, Persian, Hellenistic and Roman traditions.
In a soon-to-be-released follow up to Nailed, entitled Jesus: Mything in Action, Fitzgeraldargues that the many competing versions proposed by secular scholars are just as problematic as any “Jesus of Faith:” Even if one accepts that there was a real Jesus of Nazareth, the question has little practical meaning: Regardless of whether or not a first century rabbi called Yeshua ben Yosef lived, the “historical Jesus” figures so patiently excavated and re-assembled by secular scholars are themselves fictions.
We may never know for certain what put Christian history in motion. Only time (or perhaps time travel) will tell.
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21 comments
Feel free to reply to any comment by clicking the "Reply" button.Up check for the Valerie Tarico reference. I've followed her for years especially though her blog, 'AwayPoint'.
My personal feelings map pretty much to number 1 -- all the things that were written about Jesus when he was supposedly alive -- exactly nothing. The Romans were good at keeping records (for taxes if nothing else) but somehow he never got recorded -- color me very dubious.
RichCC
Level 8
Apr 9, 2023
11
I looked her up, her stuff looks good. Thanks for the tip!
I'm glad so many have made it their life's work to unravel Jesus. Me? I never believed the dude was real. Learning about the 7th Dayers, Mormons and JWs totally reinforced the idea Jesus was just a means to an end. People are so gullible.
silverotter11
Level 9
Apr 9, 2023
10
Yes, the mythicists, like Carrier, Price and Fitzgerald have made great strides within Christology over the past 2 decades, much to the chagrin of historicists like Erhman, who are facing the assertion that the fundamental premise of their work -- that there was a real historical Jesus-- is false, or at least challengable or questionable or not proven. My guess, and it's only that, is that within a few decades, Jesus will be declared a mythological figure in mainstream Christology. It takes time for orthodoxy to change in subject disciples.
David1955
Level 8
Apr 9, 2023
9
Honestly, it doesn't damn well matter.
The biblical, water-walking, crucified and resurrected, 5000-feeding Jesus most certainly didn't exist.
Yes that myth 'was inspired by something' - it could be earlier myths, it could be a real person, it could be any number of things - but that makes no difference whatever to the fact that the christian, biblical Jesus is a myth.
Yes - Bugs Bunny was 'inspired' by real rabbits, but that doesn't make Bugs any more believable, meaningful or significant.
My own suspicion? That the myth of biblical Jesus was just re-written, re-cast versions of earlier myths... but who cares?
It doesn't bloody matter.
ToakReon
Level 8
Apr 10, 2023
7
This simply reinforces what I have believed for a long time, that the bible was written by a number of different men to bolster their own personal beliefs.
WayneDalton
Level 8
Apr 9, 2023
7
Written by a number of different men yes, but those men did not know each other and the beliefs that were bolstered by the writings came about some 300 plus years after the time of Jesus.
Theologians have never advanced a serious objection to evolution and its findings. Nor do they dispute the implication that Adam didn't exist. Jesus refers to Adam as a living, breathing human as real as Moses (!), and yet theologians relegate Genesis to symbolic allegory. However, without a real Fall, the entire premise for Jesus's redemption vanishes and goes poof!
If Christians have any disproof of evolution, let them show it. Otherwise, the whole of the NT must be waved off.
To recap: Romans 5:14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.
Notice how Adam and Moses are mentioned in one breath. The author of Romans believed that Adam and Moses were real people rather than symbols or allegories. The passage also states that death started with Adam. This refers to the phrase, “The wages of sin is death.” It is Adam’s Original Sin that brings about the existence of death.
Without Adam, Jesus's death and resurrection are BS. Adam is BS, so Jesus is too. And the whole of Christianity.
racocn8
Level 9
Apr 10, 2023
6
Having read many of the books referenced here, I'm still just as confused whether the Jesus story is “historicized mythology” or "mythologized history" but it really doesn't matter much to me.
All that matters is that there is a character, with a pretty flimsy genealogy, mixed messages as to what he supposedly said and did, and various accounts of a "resurrection" and so on, which seems to me to point to a myth created for the reason of charismatically attracting followers for a purpose. That time has come and gone.
I don't care one way or another if he was indeed a real person, the real matter is whether the teachings attributed to him are true today in lifting up humankind, and if so, and/or if not, have there been others in more recent history who have packaged a better message, or many messages and values to practice in this modern time, in our present environment, with our current social issues?
Whether he was real or not, there are plenty of other luminaries who have enlightened humanity with more pertinent values and behaviors. The time of Jesus has come and gone, and now we should listen to more educated, more worldly, more PEACEFUL leaders to add their suggestions for bettering humanity.
Julie808
Level 8
Apr 11, 2023
5
Those are some of the things I ran onto while studying for the ministry. What keeps all of this going is a basic fear of death and tradition itself. Man wants to think he has found a way to live forever or at least be alive once a make believe part of him leaves his body. We can thank Saul of Tarsus for that one.
DenoPenno
Level 9
Apr 10, 2023
5
Hello! For the record I do believe Jesus existed but since I'am a Raelian Chrisitian and the prophet Rael met Jesus on the eternal life planet.I have no doubt Jesus was a prophet of our ET creators the Elohim and after he was executed and dead the Elohim took a cell sample from his dead body and cloned Jesus back to life on the eternal life planet where he has remained there to this day.
RichRaelian
Level 4
Apr 10, 2023
5
Nothing, short of any god presenting itself to me in real time, will ever convince me of the veracity of any religious bullshit.
As far as I'm concerned, all these "biblical scholars" are wasting everyone's time.
There are no gods. It has always been man made garbage.
KKGator
Level 9
Apr 10, 2023
4
There are, and have been several different positions on the issue. Not just history or myth, but also pure fiction, garbled pro-Roman propaganda earlier Jewish texts reused etc.
My own thought is that whatever theory people hold, given the almost complete lack of any real evidence, and what evidence there is badly garbled, it is a delusion to think that any theory could ever be provable. I have seen people make what seemed like really good cases for all of them, but nobody had a single bit of solid evidence.
Fernapple
Level 9
Apr 10, 2023
4
I had hypothesized severl times on this site that Jesus as depicted in the bible did not exist, but it was more likely that there was a philosopher who was distorted and mythologized with traditional myths added to his story and supernatural characteristics added as well.
It is much easier to see what happened by looking at the story of Buddha. He was a philosopher who taught a philosophy of not desiring excess or deprivation as a way to achieve happiness. However, after his death, storytellers added traditional story themes and supernatural aspects to his life story to make him seem more than human or divine. I think a similar thing happened with the character who came to be known as Jesus.
He was a philosopher who had a following. Then after his death, they took many traditional story themes and added them in, as well as adding supernatural aspects to make him see more than human or divine.
Buddhism works as a life philosophy, but not as a religion with supernatural aspects.
With the person who came to be known as Jesus, I do not think there is enough left of his actual orifinal philosophy to determine if it work work without the supernatural religious aspects and beliefs., but it certainly doesn't work with them.
snytiger6
Level 9
Apr 10, 2023
3
Your first point is the most convincing and there really doesn't need to be anything else said. There is not ONE mention, one WORD, of a man of Jesus' description ANYWHERE, by ANYBODY, despite the claim he had hundreds, no, THOUSANDS of loyal followers. This despite the fact Jerusalem was TEEMING with historians. It was a troublesome area but also the seat of Roman influence in the Middle East. Many would-be messiahs were mentioned by these sources, but of "Jesus," not a single word? NOTHING? That's not possible; it just isn't.
I could embellish, expand upon, elaborate about this and your other points. Add it all up and you begin to realize the amazing thing is that anybody still believes there is one chance in a thousand there was such a man. The New Testaments are factually inaccurate and baldly contradict each other. In fact, there is hardly anything therein contained that is provably true.
No, "Jesus" is a myth. I personally like the broad outlines of Atwill's thesis that Christianity was a Roman creation. At the very least it would have withered and died without massive Roman backing, and it was how Rome maintained it's mortal lock on power long after the Roman legions had disappeared. That Christianity (and Islam) horribly warped our idea of reality and continues to to this very day is beyond dispute It is and always has been a gigantic hoax..
Whitecloud
Level 3
Apr 19, 2023
2
Hi! I listen to a podcast of a Italian atheist who wrote a book claiming Christ didn't exist it almost makes me want to listen that podcast over again.
RichRaelian
Level 4
Apr 14, 2023
2
First I was a tadpole swimming fast as thunder
Then I was bullfrog with my tail tucked under
Then I was a monkey swinging from a tree
Now I'm a professor with a PHD.
Isn't it sad to learn that your life has no meaning at all.
Just pull your head out your behinds to stop global warming. After you use up 5 rolls of TP to wipe the crap out of your eyes. Try something new and read the Bible.
Remember Jesus is coming soon!
BAC888
Level 1
Apr 11, 2023
2
"Isn't it sad to learn that your life has no meaning at all?"
Well not as sad as talking to your imaginary friend. Then exhorting everyone else to talk to him. Although better than killing/torturing them for not following a "truth" that is as arbitrary as what sports team you support.
A small part of the confusion is the fact that there is evidence (Josephus for example) that there were men named Yeshua roaming Judea throughout the era . Thus we have our “historical” (hysterical) Jesus, just not the itinerant preacher working miracles.
Detritus
Level 7
Apr 13, 2023
1
Meme evolution is very much scientifically and historically observable. As with complicated scientific, historic and evolutionary processes it is not easily understood and not at all well enough known.
Myth in the mind of people is an aspect of how meme organism is passed from person to person thru a culture. The myth in the mind of the old testiment generations is apart of the meme organism that evolved to be Jesus style meme God organism of new testiment in person.
It's why I have my group to explain to people the evolution of Jesus character and meme organism. "Illogical atheists guide for ending Christianity "
Word
Level 8
Apr 10, 2023
1
It's based on fear and why more people have been killed in the name of God than any other reason . Today's new God's are the financial pyramids empires
Castlepaloma
Level 8
Apr 10, 2023
1
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