It is harder to pretend alleged gawds exist with no vowels in language. ....Hebrew looks too much like Arabic and both languages are home to 1000 years + violence & rape culture. ...so glad you escaped into Atheism. ..freedom from theism

That is quite the story. I am still searching as to why my great great grandmother left Judaism. I was named after her daughter

@AmelieMatisse did Disraeli "convert" ? In order to win xian votes

I am also enjoying this string. My identity is rather mutt- like. I have Jewish heritage through my maternal great great grandmother, but in terms of the family it was long forgotten. I often wonder if any of the pogroms in the late 1800's brought them here. Then on my paternal side I have indigenous American blood 4 generations back.

Well, atheism or Agnosticism are beliefs but I can see your wording question.

@AmelieMatisse I baulk at the word 'beliefs' - it smacks of faith when nothing could be further from the truth in atheism.

@Flettie well ok but you believe there is no god. Is that not a belief? I personally think we have allowed the Christian right to co- opt way too many words and allow them to re-write the dictionary.

@AmelieMatisse you're probably correct... we very quickly get into sematics. I guess I could be accused of being anti-semantic

Faith is one word that really needs to be unpacked... I know I'll make a post about it.

@Flettie yes I totally agree faith is an incendiary word

@AmelieMatisse, @Flettie Not all beliefs are equivalent. I agree with you both.

@AmelieMatisse Absence of belief is not in itself belief; just as an absence of colour (black) is not a colour. Those of us from the engineering/physical sciences world tend to use the word "belief" very sparingly. I would never say that I believe there is no god; I would prefer to observe that there is no reason for me to think that an anthropomorphic god exists, but if you or anyone else shows up with any evidence to the contrary, I'll be happy to listen. So far no one has. I realise that is lot more wordy but it does avoid the use of the "B" word.

@Arouet interesting point. So to pun paraphrase here I believe I think therefore I am...... Although I do like Descarte's original saying

@AmelieMatisse creo cogitare ergo sum? You're right. It does not have the same je-ne-sais-quoi of René's original. (-:

@AmelieMatisse, @TheMiddleWay I'll meet your quibble and raise you a quibble. Visual artists can call their tools whatever they want, but what comes out of the tube is not black, which is the total absence of visual light. If it has visible texture and highlights, then it isn't black by definition. I am not ready to abandon my analogy. Your remaining comments depend on extensive use of the word "belief" or its derivatives and therefore your conclusions beg the question. Here is a definition (I know there are others.): "...acceptance that something exists or is true, especially one without proof." By that definition, I am neither agnostic nor atheist, though I don't object to being described thus. So if someone asks me whether I believe in god(s) yes, no, or maybe, my answer is that the question is pointless and undeserving of a reply.

@Arouet my understanding of black is that it contains all color, anyway that's the way it worked when I was mixing wall paint in the design studio. So, in that respect black is everything as opposed to nothing. As far as what the word believe means is something we can quibble about forever. I believe that you choose not to like the word and you think rather than believe that the word is useless. Ok that is your choice in language. Gotta ask, are you a fan of Derrida? But this morning I have bigger fish to fry as my one friend just made a FB comment that her writing had bern compared to Tom Wolfe I gotta put out that fire immediately LOL

@AmelieMatisse One last comment and then I'll drop it. "Believe" implies not only a lack of evidence, but a certainty missing in "think" or "opine". I understand that the word is used carelessly in some dialects, e.g."I believe I'll have another beer", but it is only the root meaning that I care about and object to.

Never heard of Derrida, but as he seems to care about meaning, and is dense and argumentative, I' m sure to like him.

Good luck crushing your one (other) friend's hopes and dreams. Let us know how that worked out.

@AmelieMatisse, @TheMiddleWay Amen & hallelujah, Bro! (Oops, Freudian slip)

@Arouet I love the word "opine" I believe I shall start using it regularly LOL. Yes Derrida is something else as is his theory is dense. And as far as my friend who thinks she writes like the late Tom Wolfe, I said " Michelene you may opine about your writing but my opinion is that it is shit and you are either on the bus or off the bus because you don't even know what you're trapped by in your own little script"

But how about: "have faith in me". Which also could be seen or worded as: "Believe in me". I named daughter #2 Faith. When I hear someone say, "just have some faith", I am able to say, "I do, I raised her. Now that she is married, I just get to have 'some' Faith". So 'faith' is a sensation to me, not so much a word to indicate following a creator.

Interesting as I have quite a few Jewish friends. Most of them are definitely practicing religious Jews. I guess I never considered practicing the culture without practicing the religion. I think that someone identifying as a Christian is always talking about the religion whereas for Jews it can be the ethnic heritage.

I think with Judaism its difficult to be culturally Jewish without the religion. Even their state and faith are inseparable which leads many who criticise Israel being called anti-Semitic. It's also why the Jewish lobby has a strangle-hold on US foreign policy. #AmericanEmbassy

@Flettie your thinking leaves a lot to be desired. Living the dream, man!

@Flettie, @AmelieMatisse maybe if you folks talked more with Jewish people about what matters, you would learn something. Cultural Judaism is fairly common and with EASE Jews are able to keep their identity without being religious. I hope you step away from your stereotypes and get to know Jewish people for who they are not by the lobby groups.

@crazycurlz I don't have much contact with Jewish people where I live its fair to say. Those who I have talked to tend to be transmitters rather than receivers and come across as a bit boorish if I'm honest. Perhaps that's a function of the feeling of victim-hood that pervades their culture. The tone of your response kinda re-enforces my view.

@crazycurlz I think you totally misread my comments. I merely said that I had not had experience with cultural rather than religious Jews and realized it is indeed a reality. Re- read my last sentence. And because I take my thoughts seriously and feel as if I am always looking for back up to my thoughts/beliefs I had an in-depth discussion with a friend whom I have coffee with twice a week who is Jewish and practices her religion. She explained that it is similar to people who celebrate Christmas and Easter with gatherings and gift giving but don't go to church. So I can say that I have been given yet another reason to admit that even I sometimes do not think outside the box. I know a lot of Jewish people but my interactions with them are never about religion or lack thereof, we are people who get together socially because we enjoy each other's company and a few of them have no idea that I identify as Buddhist. I feel you did not totally think out your comment accusing me of stereotyping.

@Flettie you think your narrowness only applies to Jews, but I've no doubt you view everyone through a narrow filter. Control freak?

@AmelieMatisse forgive me then for jumping to conclusions. In truth, sometimes in writing and even in speaking, one has to question intent and expect to be corrected at times. I stand corrected and am grateful you are not narrow in your views towards well, ANYONE. And, as that is the case, then, I'm happy to meet you and hope you'll forgive me. Obviously it meant enough to you to put up the post and I should have recognized that.

@crazycurlz ah gift wrapped insults.

@Flettie oh, shit, did I gift wrap that sucker? THAT was unintentional.

@AmelieMatisse uhm....Amelie Matisse...OMG any relationship to Amelie Matisse?

@AmiSue hahaha some part of me lives for engagement! Hope you're having a good day!

@crazycurlz thanks that means a lot. I honestly feel that communication is vital. I also know that it is sometimes hard to decipher the tone or intent in an email or text and misunderstandings are bound to occur. But we 2 women worked it out and are the better for clearing the air without resorting to meanness. I think we should get 100 points just for that. Again thanks for taking the time to clarify. This is very important to me because of my mixed breed heritage

@crazycurlz yeah don't I freaking wish!! I am such a fan of Paris in the 20's and the entire art scene. There is a museum in Philadelphia, The Barnes, he had an amazing collection plus many Matisse. I go there a lot and have decided that I'm "Woman in the Red Turban" it was one of his paintings of his wife, Amelie. So , perhaps I am delusional LOL

@crazycurlz in a forum for debate you made your distaste for my position well known. There was no effort on your part to educate, persuade or to discuss nor was there any effort to validate your opinion. Just thinly veiled abuse. I think you need to use another forum for your defensive approach

By 'savage, nomadic Middle Eastern Patriarchs of six thousand years ago' you must be referring to all/most tribal groups of the ME and on that I can agree. 'Savage' of course can also refer to tribal groups around the globe: mayan, vicking, American Indians (Comanche tops the list). Savagery is, sadly, part of the HUMAN experience.

@crazycurlz Only for about the last 6,000 years give or take a few centuries.

@Silver1wun do you really believe that? I don't. We are not bonobos, after all. For instance, what happened to the otherwise peace-loving buddhists that they attacked rohingya? Buddhism didn't spring from western monotheism. I think there's a bigger, more sinister [something] in our DNA/socialization than western religion.

@crazycurlz very interesting point with Buddhists and I agree that it seems there is something in the human that gives us all the potential of harming others. Maybe the ancient brain part for self preservation that now reacts in different ways?

@crazycurlz Your point of view is consistent with the androcentric platform upon which all 'modern' societies have formed over the last six millennia. Within the scope of history that includes neolithic and mesolithic human, particularly Occidental history, what is seen as pathology or a flaw is actually the product of the platform. (platform is my term)

@Silver1wun in other words, we agree to disagree

@Silver1wun, @AmelieMatisse possibly ancient brain as exhibited by people like Silver who because they can't see the forest through the trees, wax intellectual. Sorry to twist your words, Amelie to serve my purpose. Silver and I will do battle at every turn and it's to our liking.

@AmelieMatisse, tribalism. The us versus them survival syndrome. Heard an interview with the author on NPR. [barnesandnoble.com]

@Barnie2years yep it is that. I am a huge fan of Ken Wilbur writings. He talks about tribalism and how far down it is on the pathway to an ideal society

Yes good point indeed. I have close friends who are Jewish but I only know a few people perifpherally who are Muslim and because none of us ever discuss religion (politics are a different matter LOL) I really am not that well informed