Let's settle on some definitions and agree to use them as a standard. I'm proposing to help define - and refine - the terms "theist", "agnostic", and "atheist", so I recommend we use Dawkin's scale, with a couple of tweaks and additions. Note the clear difference between believing and knowing.
The God (capital G) referred to here is of the three Abrahamic monotheistic religions.
(Hominid crosses his fingers, hoping this doesn't suffer death by committee.)
1 - Strong theist. 100% probability of God. In the words of C.G. Jung: "I do not believe, I know."
2 - De facto theist. Very high probability but short of 100%. "I don't know for certain, but I strongly believe in God and live my life on the assumption that he is there."
3 - Leaning towards theism. Higher than 50% but not very high. "I am very uncertain, but I am inclined to believe in God."
4 - De facto agnostic. Completely impartial. Exactly 50%. "God's existence and non-existence are exactly equiprobable."
5 - Agnostic athiest. Leaning towards atheism. Lower than 50% but not very low. "I do not know whether God exists but I'm inclined to be skeptical."
6 - De facto atheist. Very low probability, but short of zero. "I don't know for certain but I think God is very improbable, and I live my life on the assumption that he is not there."
7 - Strong atheist. "I know there is no God, with the same conviction as Jung knows there is one."
8 - Spiritual atheist. "I know there is no God, but believe that everything in the universe is in some way connected."
9 - Spiritual agnostic. Completely impartial about God's existence, but believes that everything in the universe is in some way connected.
I can't see this being all that far off from what many have been chatting about here. Anyone think the list is good, bad, or ugly?
Define "knowable"? I am crippled by a math degree. I know what it means "to prove". OTOH, "knowing" comes in many ways. Borrowing from "Contact", prove to me your dot, your wife, your mother loves you.
Agnostic literally means "without knowing" or "with knowledge". "Atheist" means literally "without god".
Nothing precludes a spiritual nature. As one who has had some very clear incidents of prescience, out of body, ESP, there is something non-corporeal going on. However, spiritual does not immediately imply theistic. I'm happy with blaming it on quantum non-locality or quantum entanglement.
I think of myself as "a Jeffersonian Christian" and a "Carl Sagan atheist". Jefferson saw Jesus as a great philosopher and Christianity, well, in his own words "the most evil thing to have sprung from the mind of Minerva since Jupiter. Sagan, on the other hand, dearly wanted to believe but could not.
Knowable = can provide evidence of a given fact. It's knowable to anyone. 1 + 1 = 2.
Your definitions are not wrong per se, and have good grounding in etemology, but they vary from many other definitions that people use. Hence the need to standardize these definitions instead of constantly arguing about them.
I'm not trying to connect spirituality with theism. I too think that non-local coherence can explain some weirdnesses; that was the intent of bringing up the idea of connectedness.
Your scale does not track and it implies a single dimension with multiple variables.
Yes, because it's the definitions in this "single dimension" that require standardizing. This site is called "agnostic.com". People on this site have a wide variety of definitions in regards to this "single dimension". So, let's agree on some.
Thanks for sharing your ideas, I think it's a nice scale on the theism atheism axis. However, it entirely misses the mark on what I mean when I say I am agnostic. By agnostic, I mean that many things are unknowable to us as human beings. Rationality is powerful but it has limits when applied by humans. I don't think we are rationally capable of achieving certainty or near certainty with regard to spiritual truths. I think my beliefs are shaped more by the combination of genetics, experience, and culture then they are by my rational investigations. (Disclaimer, I'm not agnostic to the point of saying reason has no value or that we cannot know anything, just that it has limits.)
Are not our rational investigations shaped by the very same combination of genes and experience (culture, in this case, being grouped with experience)? Are human beings truly capable of conducting purely rational investigations, divorced from what makes us who we are? Further, what 'spiritual truths' await our certitude? If truth is synonymous with fact, or reality, in what domain do 'spiritual truths' reside?
Then find some other word than "agnostic" to describe yourself, instead of subjugating it's intended meaning with your own.
The first definition of agnostic in Miriam Webster dictionary is: "a person who holds the view that any ultimate reality (such as God) is unknown and probably unknowable". I'm hardly alone in the way I define the term. So I don't know why you think I am "subjugating it's intended meaning" with my own.
I think it's more inclusive to say most of us don't believe in a god or gods, and not necessarily try to put a name or number on what small differences we have.
Clarifying and defining terms is the intent of the scale. Much ink (...pixels?) is unnecessarily spilled because there is no agreement on these terms.
I would say that I'm a decently strong 5, with 9 lingering around in my mind to some degree...
I'm already prepared for a schism....where's my friggin' hat....I'm gonna drive my hat up to poland....make my own rules....lessee....1. do what though wilt shall be...what? it's already taken...damn it....but how will we tell people what they believe? How will they know?
No, thank you. I am an individual, with constantly evolving ideas and beliefs.
I also believe this site is supposed to be inclusive, not somewhere to rigidly put us in boxes. Especially your boxes.
@Annaleda - boxes? No... surely you can place yourself somewhere on the scale, which is meant to do nothing more than help refine our terms, which at this point are debated and discussed more than they need to be. By that, I mean differing opinions are applied to the same term. Let's agree on the terms...
@irascible - dichotomies imply duality. This is a scale, so your description of it is erroneous. Your description of yourself seems to fall somewhere around 5.5.
You want us to agree to your terms and definitions only. No, I will not.
If you truly wanted this community to come together, you would have asked our opinions, instead of told us what we we’re going to do.
Part of debating and discussing is to share different opinions and beliefs. You are not going to start commanding my use of this site, or of my words and definitions.
And you are in the minority of confusion of terms and their uses. It’s only recently that a few of you are finding this an issue.
I applaud your effort, but I can't go with it.
Can you expound? I thought Dawkins was on to something...
Agnosticism isn't framed purely within the confines of a god, but rather the nature of ultimate reality, which could be a god or could be something else. It could be a combination of gods and multiverse and who knows wtf else. The question of the existence of a god doesn't quite cover it.
Also, the idea that agnosticism represents that the existence of a god is equiprobable is off target. It's about whether or not it's even knowable. I believe it (actually, the nature of ultimate reality) is unknown and unknowable, which some refer to as strong agnosticism. Yes, when I'm talking about the existence of a god, I could go either way equally, but the framework of god doesn't reflect the essence of agnosticism.
I think part of my objection to this scale, which I first encountered on this site, is that it's deity-centric, and specifically seems Abrahamic-centric, which you made explicit to your modified version. It needs to be generalized.