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The other day, someone asked: Why has England copied so many names of U.S. towns and cities?
Garban comments on Jul 2, 2022:
England also copied the days of the week from the US.😉
Fernapple replies on Jul 2, 2022:
And the months of the year. I wonder what percentage of people in the USA ever wonder why the pagan Romans and Norse named their gods after the days of the week and months of the Christian year ?
Those hateful atheists who think that "religion poisons everything" (one of their mantras which I ...
Fernapple comments on Jul 1, 2022:
Of course religion has had many benefits, especially in the past, I doubt you will find anyone to dispute that, that is a strawman argument. In part because, in the ancient past, religion was simply the same thing as culture, the Roman word "religio" even meant exactly that, to some, because the ...
Fernapple replies on Jul 2, 2022:
@Matias No I do not think that anyone would assume that, no mention of a time period, meant all time periods, but would rather assume that the present tense was implied by default. However since this is a broad and liberal site, some members may not be all that intelligent or diligent readers, and it is possible that I could have misled them, for which I stand corrected. It is always good to be very careful what you write because of that, but sometimes it is needful to take risks in order to keep things short enough. As to why and how religion switched sides, that did not take place at any one time but was a gradual process, in which the definition of the word itself was forced to change to match growing understanding. Which history was the main part of my comment here. So that I will quote it again. "In part because, in the ancient past, religion was simply the same thing as culture, the Roman word "religio" even meant exactly that, because the modern word culture did not then exist. But the world moves on, and soon, as knowledge grew, and morality became more refined, people added new words to represent more nuanced ideas, starting with philosophy way back in ancient Greece and China, then politics, then the arts, then science, then secularism, then at last culture, humanism and environmentalism etc. in this century. And as new ideas carved out new areas for themselves, the world of thought became more complete and more nuanced, and so did the language that modelled it. And wisdom and understanding is always about the greater nuance. Religion was probably mainly harmless, even beneficial, ( Though I doubt it. ) when it was the same as all of human culture. But eventually the word came to mean just that small corner of human life and thought, where we still deploy fake authority and little else." The word religion simply does not mean the same thing today that it did in the past, and that is not just a label swap but represents real changes in society and thinking. And I am sorry to say that the simplistic demand for a stated single time when the change occured, ignoring the fact that changes may be gradual. Is just another example of apologitics style pseudo-logic, the sort of low trick which I was talking about, which may be forgivable in people infected with apologetics, where low standards are the norm, because it usually only involves preaching to a converted audience who will nod along to anything. But it hardly belongs in real debates between adults.
Those hateful atheists who think that "religion poisons everything" (one of their mantras which I ...
Fernapple comments on Jul 1, 2022:
Of course religion has had many benefits, especially in the past, I doubt you will find anyone to dispute that, that is a strawman argument. In part because, in the ancient past, religion was simply the same thing as culture, the Roman word "religio" even meant exactly that, to some, because the ...
Fernapple replies on Jul 2, 2022:
@Matias I would think that it would get quite a high return of yes votes, and there would be some justification in that. In part because everything poisons everything, there is nothing in human experience that does not have a cost and a down side, whatever the benefits. Simple dualism s belong to religious thinking and sadly that can infect other ideologies as well, especially those who are most engaged with relgion even in oposition.
Octopuses may be so terrifyingly smart because they share humans' genes for intelligence.
FvckY0u comments on Jul 1, 2022:
"However, since octopuses are quite distant from humans on the tree of life, it's possible that active LINE transposons in the two groups are an example of convergent evolution. This means their contribution to intelligence evolved separately in the two lineages, rather than originating in a shared...
Fernapple replies on Jul 2, 2022:
The only problem with that is. That if we both inherited them from the same origin, then why did that manner of using the genes disappear in all the intermediate species?
I see that the useful lie argument still has some support even among people on this site.
Matias comments on Jun 30, 2022:
"Some support among people..." *Who* is a proponent of the idea that religion is a useful lie? Nota bene: a lie is not the same as an imaginary construct, an imagined order...etc. Talking about a *lie* presupposes that the liar is aware of the truth. (Yours truly would never call religions ...
Fernapple replies on Jul 1, 2022:
@Matias The term useful lies, was inspired by, the well known quote from Lucius Annaeus Seneca. "Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by the rulers as useful." Which I thought to be so well known, that most members would recognize the derivation without a prompt. So I shortened it to fit. Seneca's idea is nearly two thousand years old, and has been quoted widely by many authors over that time. Hopefully Seneca is old enough to meet the needs of religious conditioning, to only believe very aged authority.
Those hateful atheists who think that "religion poisons everything" (one of their mantras which I ...
Fernapple comments on Jul 1, 2022:
Of course religion has had many benefits, especially in the past, I doubt you will find anyone to dispute that, that is a strawman argument. In part because, in the ancient past, religion was simply the same thing as culture, the Roman word "religio" even meant exactly that, to some, because the ...
Fernapple replies on Jul 1, 2022:
@Matias, @Redheadedgammy, @ChestRockfield You two will make me blush.
Those hateful atheists who think that "religion poisons everything" (one of their mantras which I ...
Fernapple comments on Jul 1, 2022:
Of course religion has had many benefits, especially in the past, I doubt you will find anyone to dispute that, that is a strawman argument. In part because, in the ancient past, religion was simply the same thing as culture, the Roman word "religio" even meant exactly that, to some, because the ...
Fernapple replies on Jul 1, 2022:
@Matias, @Redheadedgammy I try my best, it is nice to know that people find value in it.
Those hateful atheists who think that "religion poisons everything" (one of their mantras which I ...
Fernapple comments on Jul 1, 2022:
Of course religion has had many benefits, especially in the past, I doubt you will find anyone to dispute that, that is a strawman argument. In part because, in the ancient past, religion was simply the same thing as culture, the Roman word "religio" even meant exactly that, to some, because the ...
Fernapple replies on Jul 1, 2022:
@Matias No my last was only about the present and future. I made no mention of the past. Really, if that is the kind of silly joke argument that you think is worth making, it is time to consider the damage to the personality that long term contact with religious appologetics may be doing. It is I know, common place in theist circles to use that sort of misdirection, but they never seem to realize that outside in the open air that is only going to make them look silly. Quotes, it only took seconds to run these down, and there are lots more. "And of course we can retain a sentimental loyalty to the cultural traditions of, say, Judaism, Anglicanism or Islam, and even participate in religious rituals such as marriages and funerals " "It is time to face up to the important role that God plays in consoling us; and the humanitarian challenge , if he does not exist." Both R. Dawkins.
Hercules
Krish55 comments on Jun 30, 2022:
Heracles, not Hercules...
Fernapple replies on Jul 1, 2022:
Yes, Heracles if Greek but Hercules in Latinized form if Roman. And since it was found in Greece, you would think Heracles, but then it was found on a probably Roman ship, probably headed for Rome, and probably owned by a Roman, so could be either really.
I see that the useful lie argument still has some support even among people on this site.
Matias comments on Jun 30, 2022:
"Some support among people..." *Who* is a proponent of the idea that religion is a useful lie? Nota bene: a lie is not the same as an imaginary construct, an imagined order...etc. Talking about a *lie* presupposes that the liar is aware of the truth. (Yours truly would never call religions ...
Fernapple replies on Jul 1, 2022:
@Matias No I explained the difference between a imaginary constructs, or honest beliefs, like for example money, and religions below. Maybe you missed it.
I see that the useful lie argument still has some support even among people on this site.
Matias comments on Jun 30, 2022:
"Some support among people..." *Who* is a proponent of the idea that religion is a useful lie? Nota bene: a lie is not the same as an imaginary construct, an imagined order...etc. Talking about a *lie* presupposes that the liar is aware of the truth. (Yours truly would never call religions ...
Fernapple replies on Jun 30, 2022:
@Matias Here you go. https://agnostic.com/post/671948/one-of-the-fundamental-misconceptions-many-atheists-have-is-that-they-consider-religion-to-be-nothin
Why Do I Care What People Believe? Worth a watch indeed! [youtube.com]
nogod4me comments on Jun 30, 2022:
"A doctrine insulates the devout not only against the realities around them but also against their own selves. The fanatical believer is not conscious of his envy, malice, pettiness and dishonesty. There is a wall of words between his consciousness and his real self." - Eric Hoffer, Author of The ...
Fernapple replies on Jun 30, 2022:
Great quotes. Why not post them in the quotes group ?
I see that the useful lie argument still has some support even among people on this site.
Matias comments on Jun 30, 2022:
"Some support among people..." *Who* is a proponent of the idea that religion is a useful lie? Nota bene: a lie is not the same as an imaginary construct, an imagined order...etc. Talking about a *lie* presupposes that the liar is aware of the truth. (Yours truly would never call religions ...
Fernapple replies on Jun 30, 2022:
So you are a true believer then ?
I see that the useful lie argument still has some support even among people on this site.
FvckY0u comments on Jun 30, 2022:
I view religion into 1 of 2 categories. First category are people that don't believe in it but simply use it as a means for their own personal enrichment or to control others. Perfect examples of this would be various televangelist and politicians. In this regard I certainly agree with your ...
Fernapple replies on Jun 30, 2022:
Yes, indeed, and that is one reason why I have a great deal more respect for the fundamentalist true believer, who may, however wrongly, feel that they need their religion; than I do for the none believers who think they can benefit if they can fool others into belief, whatever the cost to those fooled. The useful lie idea, is of course only used by those outside relgion, or non believers within it, the true believer would not accept that view. I can also accept that some people may be happier with religion than without it, and would not try to undermine their faith if I thought they would be hurt by that. My questioning of the useful lie idea, is only directed at those who want to promote religion, because they believe that there is no alternative and that therefore religion should be enforced. I do believe there are alternatives and that with time they can gently prevail.
I see that the useful lie argument still has some support even among people on this site.
Matias comments on Jun 30, 2022:
The concept of "inalienable human rights" is a useful lie too. Or if you prefer: a useful imaginary construct. As long as people believe in it, and it does more good than harm - what's wrong with it? Organisms have to survive and maybe even prosper , and if they achieve this using mimicry, ...
Fernapple replies on Jun 30, 2022:
@Alienbeing Perhaps not, but lots of people would support their anti death penalty position, on the basis of right to life beliefs.
I see that the useful lie argument still has some support even among people on this site.
Matias comments on Jun 30, 2022:
The concept of "inalienable human rights" is a useful lie too. Or if you prefer: a useful imaginary construct. As long as people believe in it, and it does more good than harm - what's wrong with it? Organisms have to survive and maybe even prosper , and if they achieve this using mimicry, ...
Fernapple replies on Jun 30, 2022:
@ChestRockfield, @Alienbeing It can be an imaginary construct and a real thing as well, the two are not mutually exclusive. I can imagine it, and someone who believes in the death penalty can imagine that it is suspended in some cases. But as ChestRockfield says, it also has a basis in biology.
I see that the useful lie argument still has some support even among people on this site.
Matias comments on Jun 30, 2022:
The concept of "inalienable human rights" is a useful lie too. Or if you prefer: a useful imaginary construct. As long as people believe in it, and it does more good than harm - what's wrong with it? Organisms have to survive and maybe even prosper , and if they achieve this using mimicry, ...
Fernapple replies on Jun 30, 2022:
@Alienbeing, @ChestRockfield Very true. I was concentrating on the arguments of Matias, and missed the fact that his example is false anyway.
I see that the useful lie argument still has some support even among people on this site.
yvilletom comments on Jun 30, 2022:
Please copy and paste a few lines of the comments that resulted in your conclusion.
Fernapple replies on Jun 30, 2022:
Here you go not hard to find, it only took me seconds to chase down a couple of links, (Best to read the whole thing.) and there are lots more. https://agnostic.com/post/671948/one-of-the-fundamental-misconceptions-many-atheists-have-is-that-they-consider-religion-to-be-nothin https://agnostic.com/group/ReligiousNaturalism/discussion/652401/as-far-as-cosmology-is-concerned-i-m-a-thoroughgoing-materialist-but-there-is-nothing-about-tha
I see that the useful lie argument still has some support even among people on this site.
Matias comments on Jun 30, 2022:
The concept of "inalienable human rights" is a useful lie too. Or if you prefer: a useful imaginary construct. As long as people believe in it, and it does more good than harm - what's wrong with it? Organisms have to survive and maybe even prosper , and if they achieve this using mimicry, ...
Fernapple replies on Jun 30, 2022:
Yes but I was not talking about 'all' imaginary contructs in the post, but only religion as a useful lie. That is why the words, "where religion is seen", appear in the second sentence, quite plainly. Not all imaginary constructs which people choose to believe in are lies, or religions, it only becomes a lie or religion when you are dishonest about it, by trying to pretend, to yourself and others, that it is not an imaginary construct, or supporting it with fake authority, not merely the fake authority of an imaginary god, but the other fake authorities such as tradition and personality cult as well. As to the negative effects, or dangers, of "dirty tricks," well my post is little more than a list, though not a very complete one, of those, so I may leave it to you to read it again. One of which is of course, that manipulating labels, as though objective truth can be magiced up, just by renaming things. ( The linguistic fallacy. ) Such as for example compounding religion with all "imaginary constructs" by ignoring the differences between the two, to enable the use of the same label for both. Which has the especial danger, among many others, of making the users look like dishonest fools in everyone elses eyes. A perfect example. I am little interested in the fallacy of proof by authority even in the case of Nietzsche or Jesus. And in any case would point out that Nietzsche did not say "exclusively Christian idea". And while I quite agree with the probably completely fictional character of Jesus on a few things, the usage of "truth" by the nameless writer of John's Gospel, is exactly an example of the "Lady doth protest too much." principle that, truth is a word most often used by those promoting the opposite.
I see that the useful lie argument still has some support even among people on this site.
David1955 comments on Jun 30, 2022:
Yes, I know what you mean -- a few on this site. Those who like to suggest that while religion is bad, it's good in some ways. I don't buy it. By religion I think we mean organised religion. Most of us don't care If people want to stay at home and worship the sun, or whatever. Knock yourselves ...
Fernapple replies on Jun 30, 2022:
Yes thank you, I know exactly what you mean.
[youtube.com] A video on the truth behind the story of Creation
FvckY0u comments on Jun 27, 2022:
A wonderful attempt at cognitive dissonance. For those that believe in the bable. That would, of course be those that were born in a Christian society and Christian family or converted to christianity through fear of being killed. Discount all gods throughout history both accepted and thrown on ...
Fernapple replies on Jun 28, 2022:
@skado I think that fvckyou is refering to learning to live with, accept or ignore, cognitive dissonance. Which can certainly be a learned and praticed art form, often propagated by institutions promoting irrational world views.
[motherjones.
Garban comments on Jun 27, 2022:
Amazing how stupid people are. “Women on the pill are less attractive to men according to various studies. Further to this, research suggests that women on the pill are attracted to less masculine men.” Wow. They really think people are livestock.
Fernapple replies on Jun 28, 2022:
Could be that. Women who are more intelligent may be more likely to use birth control, and be less likely to be attracted to stupid jocks.
In America everyone has the right to be ignorant and most Americans take full advantage of it.
racocn8 comments on Jun 27, 2022:
Education is mandatory, but the process of education has been stymied by a protracted cultural battle between teachers and the fascist Christians who benefit from having ignorant, easily manipulated people.
Fernapple replies on Jun 28, 2022:
@anglophone Nor is teaching.
Could the Americans on this site, tell me please, as someone not from the USA, how does it happen, ...
Alienbeing comments on Jun 25, 2022:
First, the USA is NOT a Democracy at th Federal level, nor was it ever intended to be one. Second, we are a nation of laws, Judges review laws in ALL countries. Third, the USA has always left most decisions to States. Read the last paragraph of our Constitution and perhaps you will understand.
Fernapple replies on Jun 25, 2022:
@Alienbeing Thank you again. The first one was actually the one I found, but not the second.
A society that is not also a community is nothing more than a collection of individuals.
FrayedBear comments on Jun 25, 2022:
Sadly often held together by ignorance & belief in the umproven fairy tail. Rarely working for the benefit of all.
Fernapple replies on Jun 25, 2022:
@FrayedBear Depends on what fairy tale you pick. I think that some of the modern ones, like environmentalism, human rights, humanism, and internationalism are a big improvement on the old ones like theism. And yes they are all of them fairly tales, since non of them are based on any logical historic proof, only our natural instinctive feelings. ( We could for example, all say. "f~~k the environment, let us be the last humans on a survivable earth. And it would be perfectly logical, it just would not feel good. ) But the big benefit of the modern "belief systems", which is perhaps a more dignified word than "fairy tales", is that they are to a greater degree honest. It is fine to admit that they have no support other than instinct and ad populum, and by not setting up fake sources of authority such as old books, supernatural revelation, tradition, guru based wisdom etc. You do not create a lie friendly culture, where the sources of fake authority set up for one thing, can be picked up and used by the anti social, for quite others. Such as where nazies picked up cultural Christianity, and use its authority and its preconditioning of people to accept high levels of cognitive disonance to manipulate the population. The modern belief systems at least 'try' to fit within a scientific sceptical framework. When once you start down the road however of the "useful lie" idea then you create a lie friendly cultural environment and you can then be led down any path. As much as anything, it is not what a belief system stands for, that counts, so much as whether by trying to be honest, and showing high levels of respect for sceptical thinking, it trains the population to be honest and sceptical.
Could the Americans on this site, tell me please, as someone not from the USA, how does it happen, ...
Garban comments on Jun 25, 2022:
Not a lawyer but from what I understand the right to abortion is not codified in any federal law. The Row vs Wade ruling “extended” the right to privacy to cover abortion, sexuality, and other rights. With Roe struck down all of these rights are relegated to whatever laws are on the books in the...
Fernapple replies on Jun 25, 2022:
@Alienbeing I will read it be sure.
Could the Americans on this site, tell me please, as someone not from the USA, how does it happen, ...
Garban comments on Jun 25, 2022:
Not a lawyer but from what I understand the right to abortion is not codified in any federal law. The Row vs Wade ruling “extended” the right to privacy to cover abortion, sexuality, and other rights. With Roe struck down all of these rights are relegated to whatever laws are on the books in the...
Fernapple replies on Jun 25, 2022:
Thank you.
Could the Americans on this site, tell me please, as someone not from the USA, how does it happen, ...
anglophone comments on Jun 25, 2022:
It does not help matters when such judges are appointed by a career criminal who has yet to be prosecuted.
Fernapple replies on Jun 25, 2022:
No I can see a big problem with that.
Could the Americans on this site, tell me please, as someone not from the USA, how does it happen, ...
LovinLarge comments on Jun 25, 2022:
Our Constitution establishes three branches of government intended to check and balance each other: the judiciary, the executive and the legislative branch. SCOTUS, the Supreme Court of the US is our final judicial arbiter. Its judges are appointed for life, although many judges in the US are ...
Fernapple replies on Jun 25, 2022:
Thank you.
Could the Americans on this site, tell me please, as someone not from the USA, how does it happen, ...
Alienbeing comments on Jun 25, 2022:
First, the USA is NOT a Democracy at th Federal level, nor was it ever intended to be one. Second, we are a nation of laws, Judges review laws in ALL countries. Third, the USA has always left most decisions to States. Read the last paragraph of our Constitution and perhaps you will understand.
Fernapple replies on Jun 25, 2022:
Thank you.
Could the Americans on this site, tell me please, as someone not from the USA, how does it happen, ...
David1955 comments on Jun 25, 2022:
I suspect the real question is how can the highest court in a country that lectures the rest of the world about liberty and democracy be little more than an extension of the political party system, an instrument to pursue a political party agenda, and a regressive one at that? It shows that the ...
Fernapple replies on Jun 25, 2022:
Thank you.
SCOTUS to-do list: - Abolish abortion (done) - Widen gun ownership (partially done, more yet to ...
LovinLarge comments on Jun 24, 2022:
They've got an eye on contraception too but most importantly returning voting to white men who own real property, if not outright, at least making it as difficult as possible for anyone else.
Fernapple replies on Jun 25, 2022:
Have they not already made voting as difficult as possible ? I have seen photos of mile long lines outside your polling stations.
Steven Weinberg once said, "With or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can...
skado comments on Jun 21, 2022:
I dislike this quote too, for the reasons you mentioned, plus it simply isn’t true at any level of analysis. It reveals a hateful prejudice as bad as any religious fundamentalism. It commits all the errors it accuses others of. And it is tribalism at its most insidious. It pretends that ...
Fernapple replies on Jun 22, 2022:
@skado Good. Then you can abandon the old discredited and corrupt theist traditions, and adopt the rationalist humanist belief systems then.
” One would have thought that it was even more necessary to limit population than property.
Fernapple comments on Jun 22, 2022:
Whether you agree with Aristotle or not, it is interesting that the same issues are still in need of thoughtful addressing today. Maybe the two thousand years in which the western world has been ruled by a corrupt branch of the anti-intellectual Roman Empire, called by some Christianity, has not ...
Fernapple replies on Jun 22, 2022:
@JackPedigo Yes that is true. Although those who teach the doctrine of endless selfish growth, are part of the religious tradition which taught that you treat the world with contempt, because god is going to put an end to it soon, and you should be thinking about the next world more than this one. Which even if there was a god is still illogical, since as someone once put it. "How can you say you care for god, if you show contempt for his creation ?"
When modern citizens cease to be religious they do not cease to be moral, they still have the same ...
Leetx comments on Jun 22, 2022:
Kurt Vonnegut: "I do not need the promise of reward or the threat of punishment, to be a good decent person" or something close to that. very true
Fernapple replies on Jun 22, 2022:
And yet could not pomise of reward or threat of punishment, make some turn away from being a good person. So while it may not make anyone better, it could make them worse.
Steven Weinberg once said, "With or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can...
skado comments on Jun 21, 2022:
I dislike this quote too, for the reasons you mentioned, plus it simply isn’t true at any level of analysis. It reveals a hateful prejudice as bad as any religious fundamentalism. It commits all the errors it accuses others of. And it is tribalism at its most insidious. It pretends that ...
Fernapple replies on Jun 22, 2022:
@p-nullifidian Note first Skados obvious self contradition. In his first comment he says. "it pretends it knows what religion is, when the professionals who study it are never as sure of themselves." Then in answer to you. "When you start calling everything that is infected with tribalism a religion, then the word religion loses its meaning. " Something is very wrong here don't you think. Actually, there are plenty of professionals who can and do give perfectly good definitions of religion, as with any word, and most of those definitions work quite well and rarely contradit each other. The variation on the argument from ignorance fallacy being used here, "We can't understand it therefore no one can." is a common one among appologists, including the dishonest professional ones, who are I think the only ones meant, and its use just shows the damage that the appologist culture does to people. For what it is worth, which may not be much. My own working definition of the word religion, which has served me quite well, is that. Religion is a synonym for the fallacy of, 'proof by authority'. Whether that authority comes from tradition, ad populum, or the supernatural. And your example of the Nazis fits that perfectly well since they tapped into all of those sourses of fake authority to create their illusion. While some are able to employ the useful lie argument, the sort of dishonest arguments the supporters of that position employ, and the illogical rabbit holes they are led down, is itself a perfectly good example of why it is not a good idea. It should for example be pointed out that the Nazis were working in a mainly Christian or post Christian culture, and therefore they found a population who were already preconditioned to be uncritical of indoctrination and the proof by authority method. When once you start down the useful lie road, then it is much easier to find the branching points to ever other lie, including the very bad ones, and there are no warning signs.
I sure wish I understood all the new physics that are emerging and evolving.
Fernapple comments on Jun 20, 2022:
Don't worry, you are not alone. “If you think you understand quantum mechanics, you don’t understand quantum mechanics.” Richard P. Feynman
Fernapple replies on Jun 20, 2022:
@yvilletom Indeed it does, and I think that I have a fairly good understanding of it, which if Feynman is to be believed means, I don't.
Book review of the Bible...
FvckY0u comments on Jun 19, 2022:
Why read it when you can simply pay someone to tell you what's in it? That's the option most people go for.
Fernapple replies on Jun 20, 2022:
Or even, their 'interpretation' of what's in it, which is probably more fun and more to your liking than the original.
Help me understand the logic
xenoview comments on Jun 19, 2022:
If jesus came back he would think he was a terrorist.
Fernapple replies on Jun 20, 2022:
He was a terrorist. He attacked innocent market traders and destroyed their stalls. Which was probably, if he existed at all, his only significant action.
I'm sure this does not apply to any of my male friends on this site LOL.
Matias comments on Jun 19, 2022:
Polyandry exists in some parts of south east Asia, but there a woman always married two or three brothers, because unrelated men would be at each other's throat sooner or later
Fernapple replies on Jun 20, 2022:
I have heard. It ensures that there is only one breeding female in each family, which controls population growth, and means that such societies are often more stable and wealthier than the surounding cultures. While the many unmarried women get some compensation by being given leading roles, in the religious and artistic culture.
I think this is a perfect description.
yvilletom comments on Jun 19, 2022:
A fear bordering on paranoia moves right wingers and they seem to believe fear moves everyone.
Fernapple replies on Jun 20, 2022:
It is like the dishonest, who can never imagine what it is to be motivated by a pssion for truth, or the selfish who can not imagine what it is to be charitable, so they all imagine that such things are just tricks or fake. Because it is possible for a strong person to imagine walking in a weak persons shoes, but not the other way round. So the weak only ever see a reflection of their own failings in everyone else, misandry is the philosophy of the weak.
Why do religions, claiming high ideals, always seem to end by being divisive ?
Matias comments on Jun 18, 2022:
Are religions especially divisive? No. At least not in modern societies. The most salient and dangerous separations and segregations we see in the US or in other Western countries have nothing to do with religions, but with politics and ideology. There is a healthy competition between hundreds...
Fernapple replies on Jun 19, 2022:
@Matias I do understand that many churches do good works. But one can do good works both for a bad motivation, and despite other bad motivations. But no, I do not limit my remarks by any means to American Christianity. For no jihadist, to take the crudest of examples, ever blew themselves up with a suicide vest out of the spirit of humility. No, they intended to join the most eleit and exclusive band of martyres ever, and almost the whole motivation was to be someone special. If the churches in Germany are free of the promotion of narcissism, and I will for the sake of arguement take your word for it, though I am sceptical, then you are very lucky and perhaps unique. Though it has to be said that the promotion of good causes, is hardly proof of that, since good causes can be motivated quite well by vanity. But of course when the congregations are talking about. "human rights, about refugees, the war in Ukraine, and about climate change. Then they are not doing religion, the existence of religion in someones life, or even in the life of a congregation, does not exclude them from doing other things as well or even at the same time. Also I can only speak from direct experience for my own national church, The Church of England, which is not in America obviously. And I can say that the main driving force behind that, is not even spiritual narcissism, but for the most part, the most basic sorts of secular snobbery and vanities.
Why do religions, claiming high ideals, always seem to end by being divisive ?
Matias comments on Jun 18, 2022:
Are religions especially divisive? No. At least not in modern societies. The most salient and dangerous separations and segregations we see in the US or in other Western countries have nothing to do with religions, but with politics and ideology. There is a healthy competition between hundreds...
Fernapple replies on Jun 19, 2022:
@Matias I am sure that religion is not the only source of narcissism, and that it can indeed be found in many institutions. My contention is simply that while businesses, sports, arts etc. may contain narcissism and sometimes promote it, they do have other products. ( Though it could be argued that some sports and arts are religions in many ways. ) While religion is alone in having no other major product, and in promoting pure nacissism for its own sake. I did not bother to include any scientific evidence, since he remarks were intended as a mainly subjective judgement, which does not therefore come within the remit of science, but there is actually plenty of indirect evidence out there. To give just one example the link between vacine rejection, and the clearly narcissistic view that, "I have special protection," is well documented. https://www.vox.com/2019/6/19/18681930/religion-vaccine-refusal It is true that a lot of religion seems at first glance to be about humility, but it is a very strange, and almost certainly in many ways probably fake, sort of humility. Which says that. "I submit to god" ( The literal meaning of Islam. ) But which also says that, god is the best friend that anyone ever had, far better than any other friend, exclusive to my group, and therefore I have the very best friend, who is going to give me everything. " I am devoted to my gang, because my gang is the best gang ever, with the best gang leader by far, and my devotion is the most humble of anybodies." Is not really what humility should mean. Indeed the irony of the claim to be, the most humble, seems to be lost on many.
Why do religions, claiming high ideals, always seem to end by being divisive ?
Julie808 comments on Jun 18, 2022:
The narcissism isn't an aspect I've considered before, but that makes sense. The believers (in many cases, but not all) are made to believe they are special and they will be rewarded later for the suffering they are doing now. They are made to believe that non-believers are evil and not to be ...
Fernapple replies on Jun 19, 2022:
Exactly, your thoughts are welcome, especially the last bit, for I did perhaps over play the divisiveness at the beginning, it was the narcissism which really interested me.
At one time there was supposedly separation of church and state but suddenly churches have expanded ...
Fernapple comments on Jun 18, 2022:
Good question. I think that what happens is that the extremists want power, and they can't get it by honestly winning elections, or getting people to read their nonsense. So they go to the one place where they can say anything, and claim it has the authority of god/Jesus/scripture/tradition to back ...
Fernapple replies on Jun 18, 2022:
@Lorajay Sorry, but sometimes I think that the US is still in the middle ages.
“Possession of material riches, without inner peace, is like dying of thirst while bathing in a ...
Fernapple comments on Jun 18, 2022:
It is also frequently, like swimming deeper into the lake while drowning.
Fernapple replies on Jun 18, 2022:
@Marionville, @Diogenes My thoughts exactly. My big passion is travel, and I do not care if that means a luxury hotel, or the back of a van, because the wayside flowers, ( literally and metaphorically ) which are the important things in travel, are just as bright to those who arive in a van, while luxury is often just a gilded prison. Also I know that time is short, ill health and death will always come in the end, even for the pampered. I do hope however that your medical issues are resolved well and soon. Bells Palsy sounds very nasty, and I hope you will still have time and health to view a few more flowers yourself.
“Possession of material riches, without inner peace, is like dying of thirst while bathing in a ...
Fernapple comments on Jun 18, 2022:
It is also frequently, like swimming deeper into the lake while drowning.
Fernapple replies on Jun 18, 2022:
@Marionville I know and your encouragement is welcomed. Thank You. That is one of my big mistakes, always trying to see a funny side, and sometimes being too flip for the sake of it.
Why do religions, claiming high ideals, always seem to end by being divisive ?
DenoPenno comments on Jun 18, 2022:
Exactly. The rest of humanity is not special and privileged and your group is the only one with the truth. Nice plot background for a movie but I'm finding adults of all ages today who believe it. Some also seem sad that I cannot grasp it, especially with my fundamentalist background.
Fernapple replies on Jun 18, 2022:
Oh I think that they are the ones without the grasp, not you.
When reason is shut out, all manner of excesses may rush in to take its place; and it is hard to ...
Diogenes comments on Jun 18, 2022:
Not all religious people are evil, even though they base their lives on misconceptions. The purpose of religion is to have control- it has nothing to do with doing "good".
Fernapple replies on Jun 18, 2022:
Yes. To be fair to Dupre though, he does say, "at certain times".
Why do religions, claiming high ideals, always seem to end by being divisive ?
Matias comments on Jun 18, 2022:
Are religions especially divisive? No. At least not in modern societies. The most salient and dangerous separations and segregations we see in the US or in other Western countries have nothing to do with religions, but with politics and ideology. There is a healthy competition between hundreds...
Fernapple replies on Jun 18, 2022:
I did not say that they were "especially" divisive, only that they often seem to end in being divisive. And there are deep divides along many lines, corresponding to religious divides, such as those only lately between between Christianity and Islam in Kosovo or even Belgium, while in the US the political divide on issues like abortion very closely matches to religious divides. The only reason why religious divides are not as important today, in many countries, as they were in the seventeenth century, especially when compared to political divides, is mainly because religion is less important today on the whole than it was then, while politics has grown in importance. Though actually I would not care if they were not divisive, since I was more interested in the relatioship between religion and narcissism. You say, " religions today sell mostly commodities like meaning of life, community, orientation, a feeling of belonging, spirituality." And what do you suppose that, commodities like, meaning of life, community, orientation, a feeling of belonging, spirituality are, except synonyms for narcissism. Those are exactly what I am talking about when I refer to narcissism. If Will Storr does not see the narcissism in the so called "meaning of life" industry, especially religion, then he is taking a very narrow, probably cherry picked, view of narcissism and does not really understand it at all, let alone its origins. The religious industrial "meaning of life" "spirituality" promotion of narcissism, is one of the most toxic sources of it of all. Since it does not merely harm the victims relations with others, but attempts to become addictive and prevent all true personal growth, keeping its victims permanently needy, and often moving ever onward from one source of so called, self improvement, to another, without ever seeing that those gurus are feeding the very thing, narcissism, which most blocks and prevents personal growth. You need only read the victims own stories like skado on here, when they speak about their endless "journeys" and "searches" to understand that. So that the carrot of happiness fulfilment and personal growth are never delivered, and the narcissist is kept permanently working to support the addiction, in case the, quite artificially inflated, ego should start to sag. Of course shamans and priests are in competition, competition is a factor in any industry and the religious industry is no different from any other. The most addictive church is always the most full. And I did not say that the shaman was only in competition with other shamans and the priest with other priests, they are in competition with each other as well. And how do you escape narcissism truly. You do it by growing and embracing nihilism, which is really just a ...
“Possession of material riches, without inner peace, is like dying of thirst while bathing in a ...
Fernapple comments on Jun 18, 2022:
It is also frequently, like swimming deeper into the lake while drowning.
Fernapple replies on Jun 18, 2022:
@Marionville What me decide wisely, that will be a first. LOL
Why do religions, claiming high ideals, always seem to end by being divisive ?
ChestRockfield comments on Jun 18, 2022:
Concise, scathing, and undeniably accurate. I feel I should inform you I will be stealing this concept.
Fernapple replies on Jun 18, 2022:
@holdenc98 You are born and you start to die my friend. "Life is a death sentence."
“Possession of material riches, without inner peace, is like dying of thirst while bathing in a ...
Fernapple comments on Jun 18, 2022:
It is also frequently, like swimming deeper into the lake while drowning.
Fernapple replies on Jun 18, 2022:
@Marionville I now get my pensions next year. So it is time to start making just those sorts of choices. How much, if at all, do I carry on, is it enough now. I like some of the things that money can buy, but how many of the things that life gives you for free, like time and health, is it worth risking for the things that money can buy, and money is wasted if you do not find time to spend it before you die.
What does liberalism mean to you?
Fernapple comments on Jun 18, 2022:
I don't know. The label has had so many different and often contradictory meanings, from both the political left and the political right, that it is hard to nail down a single thread. Even if you are talking about self defined liberalism on the left only, then some see it as the same thing as ...
Fernapple replies on Jun 18, 2022:
@SpikeTalon That is very true. I would term you a thinker. The surest sign of a thinker is the inability to fit labels, to them.
Why do religions, claiming high ideals, always seem to end by being divisive ?
Buttercup comments on Jun 18, 2022:
Absolutely, though I don't have much to add. Humans like contrast and dehumanizing others to feel more powerful ourselves has some appeal. Religion reinforces this in two ways, it cements our sense of belonging to a group and it is condoned by authority.
Fernapple replies on Jun 18, 2022:
Interesting that you point to authority supporting dehumanizing crimes. My pet definition of the word religion, is that. "Religion is the use of fake authority." In other words a synonym for the common fallacy called, "proof by authority", especially when that authority is a totally false one, like tradition, the so called special vision of prophets, or the word of a non existant god.
Why do religions, claiming high ideals, always seem to end by being divisive ?
ChestRockfield comments on Jun 18, 2022:
Concise, scathing, and undeniably accurate. I feel I should inform you I will be stealing this concept.
Fernapple replies on Jun 18, 2022:
Please do steal it, my greatest hope when I post something is that someone will take it and run with it, so that it will not just die on this page.
One of the fundamental misconceptions many atheists have is that they consider religion to be ...
OldMetalHead comments on Jun 16, 2022:
I consider all of those to be side effects of the real purpose of religion, which is to allow the more powerful elite to better control the less powerful masses.
Fernapple replies on Jun 17, 2022:
@skado Probably because anthropologists do not regard that as part of their remit, either that or they have collective blindness. https://www.encyclopedia.com/humanities/culture-magazines/state-church-early-modern-europe
One of the fundamental misconceptions many atheists have is that they consider religion to be ...
OldMetalHead comments on Jun 16, 2022:
I consider all of those to be side effects of the real purpose of religion, which is to allow the more powerful elite to better control the less powerful masses.
Fernapple replies on Jun 17, 2022:
@Matias That is nonsense, there were always elites, even monkeys and rats have elites, to believe that you would have to find a reason why humans are the only species without elites. Plus the bottom up or top down, views are not mutually exclusive, and indeed are most likely mutually supportive.
“There seemed no question in Dawkins’s mind that atheism as he understood it fell into the same ...
Betty comments on Jun 16, 2022:
That was an example of propaganda. Hitler did it, politicians do it, and religious leader do it. It is B.S.
Fernapple replies on Jun 16, 2022:
@skado The propaganda which perhaps J. G. has probably absorbed from the apologist community, rather than falsely creating himself, is that R. Dawkins is totally anti religious, indeed Dawkins has widely and fulsomely praised just the sort of metaphorical, non literal religion, J. G. claims to promote, and probably includes himself as such. But propaganda often means strawmanning one group to aline yourself with another.
It is getting to the hight of the rose season now in the UK and the and the garden is full.
MizJ comments on Jun 15, 2022:
I was there four years ago at this time, the roses and wisteria were magnificent.
Fernapple replies on Jun 16, 2022:
@MizJ Agreed fully.
It is getting to the hight of the rose season now in the UK and the and the garden is full.
MizJ comments on Jun 15, 2022:
I was there four years ago at this time, the roses and wisteria were magnificent.
Fernapple replies on Jun 15, 2022:
@MizJ Some of the midlands are lovely yes.
It is getting to the hight of the rose season now in the UK and the and the garden is full.
MizJ comments on Jun 15, 2022:
I was there four years ago at this time, the roses and wisteria were magnificent.
Fernapple replies on Jun 15, 2022:
Where in the UK did you go ?
It is getting to the hight of the rose season now in the UK and the and the garden is full.
KateOahu comments on Jun 15, 2022:
Lovely. Are they fragrant?
Fernapple replies on Jun 15, 2022:
No sadly they are not, but I do have R. Alba ' Celestial' which is a pink and scents the whole garden.
Christians believe in the miracle of the virgin birth : The Holy Spirit inseminated Mary and she ...
Fernapple comments on Jun 14, 2022:
Really Matias , I think you must be getting very desperate for something to post. That is a very silly strawman view of the common secular view of history. Do you really think that most, "atheists and secular humanists", imagine that the enlightenment suddenly appeared, as a bolt of lightening...
Fernapple replies on Jun 14, 2022:
@Matias It is not intended to be insulting, and your posts are often very good, so I have no intention of blocking you.The dissent is not anything to me, my comment was just about the poor quality of the dissent which is far below your normal standards.
Placing one's faith in others is admirable provided that the others concerned are themselves ...
zeuser comments on Jun 14, 2022:
That's all pretty subjective, but I take your point.
Fernapple replies on Jun 14, 2022:
Actulaly I only half agree with it, but thought it interesting.
"There never was a good war, or a bad peace.
Marionville comments on Jun 11, 2022:
Taken as a stand alone statement this quote seems on the face of it to be an admirable sentiment….however with deeper thought, I think it’s pretty glib and superficial. There may not be any examples of a “good war”, but if you substitute the word good for just, then you could argue that ...
Fernapple replies on Jun 13, 2022:
@FrayedBear No because I agree with the first part of Ben's statement, though perhaps not the second.
Does anyone know the precise source of the following quotation?
Fernapple comments on Jun 12, 2022:
No I do not know the source, I am sorry. But it is amusingly similar to my old school motto. "Nothing ventured, nothing gained." Which was about the most worthwhile thing I learned there.
Fernapple replies on Jun 13, 2022:
@AnneWimsey Thank you.
One of my pet ideas is that one can hardly overestimate the hidden influences Christian ideas still ...
Charles1971 comments on Jun 12, 2022:
This makes no sense to me. Christians, at least many of the ones in the U.S., make excuses and attempt to justify slavery, have had a history of discrimination against blacks, gays, women, and minorities, have a history of being against equality for blacks, gays, women, and minorities, have a ...
Fernapple replies on Jun 13, 2022:
Skado's science seems to come only from religious biased pseudo-science. Try this which turned up only today instead. https://news.berkeley.edu/2012/04/30/religionandgenerosity/
One of my pet ideas is that one can hardly overestimate the hidden influences Christian ideas still ...
HankSherman comments on Jun 12, 2022:
This seems to me to be crediting religion, and in particular, christianity, with influenceing social interaction in a good way....toward bettering human nature....if I right.....how fucked up is that????
Fernapple replies on Jun 13, 2022:
@skado On the contrary I repeatedly find that science shows exactly the opposite. I do not know where you get your science from, but if it comes only from apologist sources then it is likely to be biased and most probably pseudo-science. In fact another bit of science showing exactly the oposite turned up only today. https://news.berkeley.edu/2012/04/30/religionandgenerosity/
"The history of scientific thought is closely linked to that of religious thought, and with much ...
Fernapple comments on Jun 11, 2022:
In the past many scientists, such as Newton, Boyle and Bacon, were very much inspired by religion, because in those days almost everything was inspired by religion, simply because it was the dominant and leading thought system of the world. But now, they are more likely to be inspired by the ...
Fernapple replies on Jun 12, 2022:
@redbai Yep. I agree with that completely. It was philosophy which gave birth to science, which was at first even called natural philosophy. And the apologists tend to forget that, I suspect quite deliberately and with dishonest intent. Although it is easy to assume , especially if your historical knowledge has been limited by religion contaminated education, that the word philosophy, always meant the kind of abstract study bordering on morality and cosmology it is today. Where in fact, in the past, it simply meant all of secular thought as opposed to religious thought, and a good argument could be made, that philosophy only appeared in the first place back in the late bronze age, because, by then, it was becoming quite clear to many that, the conventionalized religious belief, as a system of thought, was not answering any of the questions any longer, and so people began to work on an alternative. When I mention natural theology and its probably tiny role in inspiring early science, it is not to say that I believe that it was the main wellspring of science, but only to concede as much as possible to the apologists , at the beginning, to make my anti-religious statements more forceful because I am setting out to be brutally honest at the start, and head of any "buts" they many bring up before time, and there is good evidnce that some early scientists like Newton, who spent far more time on religious mistical studies than he did science, were religiously motivated to a degree, even while they worked within another system, to create a system of thought that would eventually make it pointless.
"The history of scientific thought is closely linked to that of religious thought, and with much ...
Fernapple comments on Jun 11, 2022:
In the past many scientists, such as Newton, Boyle and Bacon, were very much inspired by religion, because in those days almost everything was inspired by religion, simply because it was the dominant and leading thought system of the world. But now, they are more likely to be inspired by the ...
Fernapple replies on Jun 12, 2022:
@redbai I never claimed there were any, I only said that certain early scientists were inspired by their religious beliefs. I wonder if inspired may have a slightly different meaning in American and UK English ? The one that I am using is very like. Britannica Dictionary definition of INSPIRED : very good or clever She gave an inspired performance. He was an inspired choice for the role. aroused, animated, or imbued with the spirit to do something, by or AS IF by supernatural or divine influence: With the emphasis on "as if". Of course.
"There never was a good war, or a bad peace.
Marionville comments on Jun 11, 2022:
Taken as a stand alone statement this quote seems on the face of it to be an admirable sentiment….however with deeper thought, I think it’s pretty glib and superficial. There may not be any examples of a “good war”, but if you substitute the word good for just, then you could argue that ...
Fernapple replies on Jun 12, 2022:
@FrayedBear No.
"The history of scientific thought is closely linked to that of religious thought, and with much ...
Fernapple comments on Jun 11, 2022:
In the past many scientists, such as Newton, Boyle and Bacon, were very much inspired by religion, because in those days almost everything was inspired by religion, simply because it was the dominant and leading thought system of the world. But now, they are more likely to be inspired by the ...
Fernapple replies on Jun 12, 2022:
@redbai The inspiration came from an old concept called natural theology, now lost and extinct as a real movement, which saw the exploring of the world and the laws which defined it, as a holy duty. In which nature was seen as an expression of gods mind, which was to be understood through nature. Especially what was seen as design, both in the realm of astronomy, and natural history, where animal and plant adaptions were seen as showing gods wisdom. So that the sciences, were a very popular pursuit for the clergy, like the Rev. Maskelyne the astronomer or the curate and naturalist Gilbert White. I especially picked those three Newton, Boyle, and Bacon especially though, because they all openly stated that they regarded their science as a sacred pursuit. A couple of quotes from I. Newton show it plainly. “In the absence of any other proof, the thumb alone would convince me of God’s existence.” “All my discoveries have been made in answer to prayer.” That was why Darwin came as such a shock in the nineteenth century, not just because he mounted a challenge to the religious world view, but also because his theories were seen as pulling out one of its major props. The world really did change completely in the nineteenth century so much so that it is very difficult now to even imagine the thinking and mindset of those times.
"There never was a good war, or a bad peace.
Marionville comments on Jun 11, 2022:
Taken as a stand alone statement this quote seems on the face of it to be an admirable sentiment….however with deeper thought, I think it’s pretty glib and superficial. There may not be any examples of a “good war”, but if you substitute the word good for just, then you could argue that ...
Fernapple replies on Jun 11, 2022:
Yes those are my thoughts.
You often get the apologists, asking for disproof of some vague, often deist, god concept.
Severnman comments on Jun 10, 2022:
The quick answer is: if you mean a (hypothetical) 'first cause' or 'whole of nature' or some other idea, then why not call it that, instead of confusing the issue by calling it 'God', by which a lot of people mean something completely different? Let's stick to the original names if you want to ...
Fernapple replies on Jun 11, 2022:
@Matias I am sorry basically that is true, but a lot of the academic philosophers of christianity, especially at the grass roots and the popular appologists, are often one and the same person, most parish priests for example are well familiar with deist theory and approve of it in the company of academia, yet fail to mention it in their churches. The hard division between adademic and populist appologetics simply does not exist. But in fact, my post was not even about priests, who talk deism to the bishop in the morning and fundamentalism to the congregation in the afternoon. Often the switch is much quicker than that, quite deliberately made fast just to get it overlooked, often in consecutive sentences. I have heard appologists use arguments such as. "Why should we obey the instruction of Moses to respect the sabath. Because it comes from god. But the atheist will say that we do not even know that god exists. " There then follows the prime mover argument, and then. "Therefore god exists and we must obey the instructions he gave to Moses. " So yes, I think it is certainly dirty tricks.
You often get the apologists, asking for disproof of some vague, often deist, god concept.
holdenc98 comments on Jun 10, 2022:
This dead horse has been thoroughly dead for nigh on to a hundred years among the broad scope of common intelligent men, and much longer than that among the intellectual leadership of our mainstream culture. But you good and smart men here, those still left here clinging to very little at ...
Fernapple replies on Jun 11, 2022:
Actually, only this morning I posted this. https://agnostic.com/group/FavoriteQuotes/discussion/671044/there-never-was-a-good-war-or-a-bad-peace-benjamin-franklin-yet-you-have-to-wonder-since-b
"The history of scientific thought is closely linked to that of religious thought, and with much ...
Fernapple comments on Jun 11, 2022:
In the past many scientists, such as Newton, Boyle and Bacon, were very much inspired by religion, because in those days almost everything was inspired by religion, simply because it was the dominant and leading thought system of the world. But now, they are more likely to be inspired by the ...
Fernapple replies on Jun 11, 2022:
@Toonman I am sorry, I must be stupid because I fail to see what that has to do with my comment. As I said, in the past theist religion was "the leading thought system", so of course it "hogged all the books", that goes without saying.
You often get the apologists, asking for disproof of some vague, often deist, god concept.
Severnman comments on Jun 10, 2022:
The quick answer is: if you mean a (hypothetical) 'first cause' or 'whole of nature' or some other idea, then why not call it that, instead of confusing the issue by calling it 'God', by which a lot of people mean something completely different? Let's stick to the original names if you want to ...
Fernapple replies on Jun 11, 2022:
@Matias Yes although that follows from my point. For the churches so called leadership, concealing even the fact that a deist idea of a god even exists, from their congregation,, is part of the deception. Faced with an intellectual challenge to religion they will happily defend the deist god, but then in the church before their victims, they pretend the deist god does not exist . Which is the basic dishonesty, they have one god in the morning and another in the afternoon.
You often get the apologists, asking for disproof of some vague, often deist, god concept.
Normanbites comments on Jun 10, 2022:
I usually try to circumvent this by challenging them to bring all religious people into one church worshiping one god. If their evidence is that compelling they should at least be able to get all the people who ardently want to believe to believe the same thing. It works pretty well. The ...
Fernapple replies on Jun 10, 2022:
Very good.
You often get the apologists, asking for disproof of some vague, often deist, god concept.
nogod4me comments on Jun 10, 2022:
H.P. Lovecraft said it very well: "We all know that any emotional bias -- irrespective of truth or falsity -- can be implanted by suggestion in the emotions of the young, hence the inherited traditions of an orthodox community are absolutely without evidential value.... If religion were true, its...
Fernapple replies on Jun 10, 2022:
Exactly. Only of course, Lovecraft puts it so much better than I can.
You often get the apologists, asking for disproof of some vague, often deist, god concept.
Severnman comments on Jun 10, 2022:
The quick answer is: if you mean a (hypothetical) 'first cause' or 'whole of nature' or some other idea, then why not call it that, instead of confusing the issue by calling it 'God', by which a lot of people mean something completely different? Let's stick to the original names if you want to ...
Fernapple replies on Jun 10, 2022:
@Matias I am sorry, but I think you missed my point. I am not talking about the prefered kind of god, quite the opposite. I mean the fraud of thinking that if you can defend one sort of god to a degree, then you can pretend that the defence applies to any other god. All those people in the pews who prefer a personal god, will quite happily nod their heads when they hear the much easier to defend deist god promoted by an appologist preacher. Because they don't know, or even notice, that there is difference, and the dishonest pseudo-intellectual appologists, who con them, are quite happy not to point it out. God is just god, to the pew sitters, and. "The appologist just defended my god." Well no actually he did not, he defended a quite different god, called the deist god, except that he is quite happy to take the credit, and dishonest enough not to point out the difference.
You often get the apologists, asking for disproof of some vague, often deist, god concept.
Severnman comments on Jun 10, 2022:
The quick answer is: if you mean a (hypothetical) 'first cause' or 'whole of nature' or some other idea, then why not call it that, instead of confusing the issue by calling it 'God', by which a lot of people mean something completely different? Let's stick to the original names if you want to ...
Fernapple replies on Jun 10, 2022:
Yes, I think that most people here would do exactly that, but sadly there are a lot of people in the world who fall for the trick.
You often get the apologists, asking for disproof of some vague, often deist, god concept.
waitingforgodo comments on Jun 10, 2022:
"What sort of an ideology, and moral system, requires to be supported by cheap trickery, and shabby attempts to fool the innocent with fake logic?" Those that rely upon supernatural beings?
Fernapple replies on Jun 10, 2022:
@Flyingsaucesir Yes the list can get long.
Will Science Someday Rule Out the Possibility of God? | Live Science
OldMetalHead comments on Jun 9, 2022:
It's notoriously difficult (impossible?) to disprove the existence of something beyond time and space. However, there are claims in the world's holy books that are 100% disprovable. IF you want to claim that the existence of a deity is contingent upon it's holy book's accuracy, then we can say ...
Fernapple replies on Jun 10, 2022:
As I just wrote to Anglophone above. You often get the apologists, asking for disproof of some vague, often deist, god concept. Such as, god is not literal but just a synonym for the "prime cause", or god is "the whole of nature". Then when no disproof appears, as fast as light, they jump to talking about their own particular theist god, hoping presumably, that if they do it fast enough, nobody will notice the jump. It is a trick, that will certainly not fool well informed sceptics, but it certain could, and does, take in many naive and innocent victims. Which brings me to one of my own common thoughts, which is. What sort of an ideology, and moral system, requires to be supported by cheap trickery, and shabby attempts to fool the innocent with fake logic ? Therefore in my mind, and in many ways I think. The best evidence against god, is the evidence used in favour of god.
Will Science Someday Rule Out the Possibility of God? | Live Science
anglophone comments on Jun 9, 2022:
The article does rather beg the question of "Which God?", assuming as it does the Abrahamic god. The assorted holy books gave answers to questions that people seem to find important, but we now know that those answers are wrong as we know have answers that are less wrong. I find it telling ...
Fernapple replies on Jun 10, 2022:
You often get the apologists, asking for disproof of some vague, often deist, god concept. Such as, god is not literal but just a synonym for the "prime cause", or god is "the whole of nature". Then when no disproof appears, as fast as light, they jump to talking about their own particular theist god, hoping presumably, that if they do it fast enough, nobody will notice the jump. It is a trick, that will certainly not fool well informed sceptics, but it certain could, and does, take in many naive and innocent victims. Which brings me to one of my own common thoughts, which is. What sort of an ideology, and moral system, requires to be supported by cheap trickery, and shabby attempts to fool the innocent with fake logic ? Therefore in my mind, and in many ways I think. The best evidence against god, is the evidence used in favour of god. (Like this, may post it.)
Our Home is actually in the Milky Way Galaxy, one in a 100+ Billion Galaxies.
Fernapple comments on Jun 9, 2022:
Very good. Though its not so much inhabiting a grain of sand, as inhabiting the very tiny layer of gas between the thin crust on a droplet of very hot liquid, and space. And the habitable layer of atmosphere, even the, fly in a plane, layer, is only about five to ten miles thick at most. Which in a ...
Fernapple replies on Jun 9, 2022:
@racocn8 I heard that too, and we can't even live in most of that.
Just an everyday problem of getting the kids to behave, when you are out in public. [youtube.com]
Garban comments on Jun 9, 2022:
Cats are amazing mothers!
Fernapple replies on Jun 9, 2022:
Mothers can be amazing cats.
Many atheists don't like it at all, to say the least, when science is called the child of religion.
Fernapple comments on Jun 8, 2022:
Why on earth would anyone want to make an argument in defense of an analogy. An analogy is itself a thing used, and not often well used, to give support to arguments. And not therefore, especially when it is a poor, weak and banal one, a thing which wants, or justifies, a defense of its own. I ...
Fernapple replies on Jun 9, 2022:
@Matias Yes that is exactly what I am saying. "It's never smart to take metaphors too seriously"
"To dismiss religion without being aware of the evidence is to do the same thing so many religious ...
KKGator comments on Jun 7, 2022:
Nice reply. My only difference with you is that I have no respect for religion. None. I only tolerate its existence because that's the law. I think all religion is evil and inherently dangerous.
Fernapple replies on Jun 9, 2022:
@Gwendolyn2018 And when it chooses a young girl as a goddess incarnate, it is being manipulative. So yes a religion.
"To dismiss religion without being aware of the evidence is to do the same thing so many religious ...
KKGator comments on Jun 7, 2022:
Nice reply. My only difference with you is that I have no respect for religion. None. I only tolerate its existence because that's the law. I think all religion is evil and inherently dangerous.
Fernapple replies on Jun 8, 2022:
@Mcflewster, @Gwendolyn2018 Different religions vary, it is true and theist religions are certainly the worst. When they are not manipulative I would stop calling them religions anyway, and use the terms belief system or philosophy instead.
"To dismiss religion without being aware of the evidence is to do the same thing so many religious ...
KKGator comments on Jun 7, 2022:
Nice reply. My only difference with you is that I have no respect for religion. None. I only tolerate its existence because that's the law. I think all religion is evil and inherently dangerous.
Fernapple replies on Jun 8, 2022:
@Mcflewster No it is quite a clear position in its own right. The middle ground I was refering to, was the middle ground between Gwendolyn and KKGator, on the one small issue between them.
Just a Little Something to Keep Me in Hot Water for the Day _____________________________ ...
Fernapple comments on Jun 8, 2022:
Science is not the child of religion. Science is the child of philosophy, even once called "natural philosophy". And philosophy was created to address the failings of received unfiltered and unquestioned cultural heritage, or in other words, religion. Sand, lime, wood and clay, make up the ...
Fernapple replies on Jun 8, 2022:
@Matias No I don't agree. Except in a negative sence, where I would say that early philosophy was actually an early form of atheism, created when secular thought could begin to see the failings of religion , but was not yet strong enough to challege it openly. You have to remember that early philosophy was very different to modern philosophy, which mainly concerns itself with religious types of issues, because, in those days, it had not yet given birth to and been superceeded by its own child science, and so it had to fill the role of science as well. Indeed I would go so far as to say that there would have never been any such thing as philosophy, at all, if there had not been a need to find a way of opposing established religion.
"To dismiss religion without being aware of the evidence is to do the same thing so many religious ...
Fernapple comments on Jun 7, 2022:
In the end. All religion is the belief that some special chosen people are given final truth as a special gift, and science is the belief that you can never have final truth, but that anyone can get closer to it with work and effort. The two may sometimes be compatible, but they approach life ...
Fernapple replies on Jun 8, 2022:
@As to the evidence for religion, well there is a lot of it, vast amounts in fact. Go into any church bookshop and you will encounter literally tons of it, lining the shelves, there is certainly no shortage of evidence. But almost all of it is either derivative and based on a few texts, which are supposed to be authoritative, but for which we do not have any original copies, any proof that the authors ever existed, or that they are even third hand eye witness accounts, in short the worst possible evidence. While that which is not derivative, consists of some of the most pathetically unconvincing philosophical arguments, like the Cosmological and the Ontological which are so bad they are almost jokes. And which are endlessly reworded, in presumably the vain hope that one day, a wording will be found that will make them sound, even a little, convincing. Often backed up by bad linguistic trickery, label swapping and pseudo - science or the misinterpretations of real science, which basically show that their employers have become so lost in their subculture that they have even lost contact with basic moral principles, like honesty. Which brings me to the point, which is. That if there was a single good bit of evidence or proof for any of it, do you not think that the apologists would long ago have dumped all the dross, and just concentrated on that one main point. What sort of an idea requires propping up with bad, banal, weak, and often dishonest evidence. The best evidence against religion, is the evidence in favour of it. For life is short, too short to study everything, of what use therefore is it to waste time on an ideology, which makes its supporters dishonest pedallers of trash, if an ideal makes you a worse person, why waste time on it ?
"To dismiss religion without being aware of the evidence is to do the same thing so many religious ...
Fernapple comments on Jun 7, 2022:
In the end. All religion is the belief that some special chosen people are given final truth as a special gift, and science is the belief that you can never have final truth, but that anyone can get closer to it with work and effort. The two may sometimes be compatible, but they approach life ...
Fernapple replies on Jun 8, 2022:
@hankster Of course, but I can also imagine rape and murder. What is imagined is real, but not all that is imagined is good. Also I can imagine that there is a fairy at the bottom of my garden, but that does not mean that I have access to its pot of gold. And it would be very dangerous for you to lend me money, on the basis that I told you that the fairy would act as a guarantor. Imagination is real, but we do not allow imagination alone to be a source of authority, for things we do, at least not if we are wise. Not because imagination can not be good, but because imagination has no limits, and does not alone admit of qualifications. I have long had a personal definition of religion which serves me well, though it is not the only one possible, and some may prefer others. It is that. The word "religion" is a synonym for the fallacy of, "proof by authority". Whether that authority comes from supernatural revelation, tradition, institutions or artistic metaphor, it does not matter. All world views have to include some axioms, but honesty and wisdom requires that we should try to keep those axioms to a minimum, and openly admit that they are axioms unsupported by empirical evidence. The dishonesty of religion, is to pretend that they can support many of their axioms by appeal to the false evidence, of authority, and that therefore they are not axioms.
"To dismiss religion without being aware of the evidence is to do the same thing so many religious ...
KKGator comments on Jun 7, 2022:
Nice reply. My only difference with you is that I have no respect for religion. None. I only tolerate its existence because that's the law. I think all religion is evil and inherently dangerous.
Fernapple replies on Jun 8, 2022:
@Gwendolyn2018 At the very least I find that religious believers, fall into two groups, those who use religion to manipulate, and those who are manipulated. For those who manipulate, I have nothing but contempt, especially since they are usually motivated by narcissism. And for the manipulated, I try to find pity at least.
"To dismiss religion without being aware of the evidence is to do the same thing so many religious ...
Fernapple comments on Jun 7, 2022:
Skado claims that his position is, that he does not believe a word of the supernatural claims, but that he thinks the goatherders wrote, really great books filled with wisdom. Which is why I am happy to contest with him. Because to my mind believing there was once a golden age of wisdom and ...
Fernapple replies on Jun 8, 2022:
@SpikeTalon Yes he does raise some good points and stops this site being an echo chamber. But sadly I now find that most of them are shallow. Probably because my early thought that he was a thinker, was mistaken, and I now find that most of his posts/comments are just mindless parroting of the apologetic culture with which he is inbedded.
"To dismiss religion without being aware of the evidence is to do the same thing so many religious ...
OldMetalHead comments on Jun 7, 2022:
As soon as they bring the supernatural into it I'm done. If you cannot provide the least bit of evidence, then it's a fairytale. There's just as much evidence that Hansel and Gretel were lost in the woods, ate a witches candy house and killed the witch by pushing her in the oven as there is that ...
Fernapple replies on Jun 8, 2022:
@Willow_Wisp Could not agree more. That is my place exactly. Perhaps a good proof of the truth of it, is that I came to it from a quite different place, but reached the same conclusions. Like you I had an abusive parent, my mother, but my family were mainly nominally secular, like most people in the UK. I was raised however to respect science and nature in part by my grandparents, who helped raise me because of my mothers abuse. As an abused child I too had difficulties at school, and found it hard to make friends or fit in, finding in science, nature and reading a refuge though. I was therefore taken eventually to a so called "better" school, which was supposed to help me. Of course the "better" school, and eventually college, were religiously inspired. Not having much religious contact as a young child, I had grown up believing that people who outwardly preached, such altruistic religious doctrines must be very good people, worth respect. And it was there, at school that to my great shock that I encountered people who poured scorn on science and nature, which were my comforts, and regarded everything as just potentially justifications for their selfish whims, religion being mainly about interpretation. You may find it hard to believe, but I was actually beaten for reading too much. The visceral shock and horror when I discovered Christian hipocrisy have never left me. We were strictly forbidden to read the classical authors, Plato, Aristotle etc. which we were told were of no value any longer, superseded, by modern Christian thinking. So of course being a kid, twelve to fifteen, what I did was to get as many as I could, and read them. I did not half understand them, and do not now agree with most of what I read. But I did find a lot of truth there, and at the very least it taught me that what I was being indoctrinated with at school, was far from being the only way to view the world. Of course I was caught and punished, but that did not matter. Then like you, I did explore alternate religions, Buddhism spirituality etc. probably to see if I could find anything to redeem the religious view of life, and of course I failed. Eventually coming to my present position, that religion equates to the fallacy of proof by authority, whether that authority comes from supernatural revelation, tradition, or artistic metaphor, and that the only people who promote it, and need that fake authority, are narcissists who want to be something special. While science is in the end, for all its many failings, just the philosophy of humility. ( Which may be why I find narcissists, trying to justify and validate religion, by misinterpreting, what may sometimes be genuine science, and sometimes pseudo-science of their invention, to mean something it does not, especially ...
Gun violence - America is again the world leader
Garban comments on Jun 7, 2022:
Gun related deaths by capita by nation. WTF.
Fernapple replies on Jun 7, 2022:
Funny they all cluster near the line. I mean if you believed the NRA line that other social factors and not just percentage of guns owned were involved, then would they not be all over the graph ? Funny that.
"To dismiss religion without being aware of the evidence is to do the same thing so many religious ...
KKGator comments on Jun 7, 2022:
Nice reply. My only difference with you is that I have no respect for religion. None. I only tolerate its existence because that's the law. I think all religion is evil and inherently dangerous.
Fernapple replies on Jun 7, 2022:
@KKGator It is a middle ground much closer to your ground, than most others. Real respect for your stance.
"To dismiss religion without being aware of the evidence is to do the same thing so many religious ...
OldMetalHead comments on Jun 7, 2022:
As soon as they bring the supernatural into it I'm done. If you cannot provide the least bit of evidence, then it's a fairytale. There's just as much evidence that Hansel and Gretel were lost in the woods, ate a witches candy house and killed the witch by pushing her in the oven as there is that ...
Fernapple replies on Jun 7, 2022:
Skado claims that his position is, that he does not believe a word of the supernatural claims, but that he thinks the goatherders wrote, really great books filled with wisdom. Which is why I am happy to contest with him. Because to my mind believing there was once a golden age of wisdom and truth, or that popular culture preserves only the wisdom and truth from the past. Just makes an irrational god out of tradition, and your own personal interpretation of what could be seen as metaphor, a fake source of authority, no better than believing old texts have authority because the sky fairy wrote every word of them. But then I suppose that for some snobs and pompus narcissists who looks down on the rest of the human race, and think that they are in need of their own wisdom as a gurus, and are doomed to chaos without it, and the superior wisdom of people like them, then they may want a fake source of authority, to lend them gravitas. (Not that that is remotely like our Skado of course, that is just hypothetical.)

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