TomMcGiverin's Profile

According to statistics, the average person over 18 consumes 3 alcoholic drinks a week.

Triphid comments on Apr 14, 2019:

Jeez they mustn't have interviewed me then, I haven't had anything alcoholic for years now.

TomMcGiverin replies on Apr 15, 2019:

@EyesThatSmile That stat about 30% of adults being non-drinkers doesn't match at all with my experience with women's profiles on Match, where only about 5% or less list themselves as non-drinkers on their profile checklist of lifestyle traits. That supports my guess that women who are recovering alcoholics do not end up using paid dating sites to find men to date, instead, they meet them thru the AA program and program social events. That makes total sense to me, because all the recovering alcoholics I've known told me they stay out of bars and also try to avoid situations with lots of social drinking, esp. early in their recovery. That's why they prefer to go to AA social events, which are dry, of course. Of course, there's no way to prove this, but it sure would explain it. And I am too honest to start going to AA meetings and faking it, tho there are probably men who do to find women to date.

According to statistics, the average person over 18 consumes 3 alcoholic drinks a week.

TomMcGiverin comments on Apr 14, 2019:

I haven't drank alcohol since the mid 1990s, and no, it's not because I'm a recovering alcoholic. So my answer would be no. I have found that in online dating my non-drinking is probably one of the biggest dealbreakers I run into with women, on their part, not mine. Almost all the women's profiles ...

TomMcGiverin replies on Apr 14, 2019:

@A2Jennifer They sure as hell do. I don't believe in lying on my profile, but I may follow suit with you. I just began working with a dating and relationship coach and when we get to revising my dating profile, we may go with that switch, maybe not. In my current profile on Match, not on Agnostic, I mention in my essay that my late wife was a social drinker and we were fine on that issue, even went to wineries together. But that disclaimer either isn't believed by the women who see it or it's irrelevant to them because they want a man who drinks socially so he will fit in with them, their friends, and the woman's family, who all drink at least socially. Like hiring for a job, what they really care about is find a man who is a "fit" for their family and social circle, as well as a man who will drink with them and share the woman's love of wine or alcohol for social drinking. To many women, I think that to them, social drinking is like hiking is for Literate Hiker, they want someone who will join them in what for them is an important part of their social life, same as hiking is for LR's rec life. I think this rigid checklist requirement that the vast majority of women I run across have is sad, but there's nothing I can do but either lie or keep getting rejected on this, if not on something else.

Remember when students put flowers on the end of rifles?

TomMcGiverin comments on Apr 14, 2019:

Would have but I was just a bit too young then.

TomMcGiverin replies on Apr 14, 2019:

@Heidi68 Saw your profile. You still seem like an old hippie at heart, just like my late wife.

I tell people "oh I'm open to the idea of a relationship I'm not closed off or letting my past ...

LadyAlyxandrea comments on Apr 14, 2019:

He's mighty friendly, comes over to my office at least 6 or 7 times through the night and chats. Showed me his pics of his marine uniforms (I believe if men were birds this prominent display of honorable and respected attire is the equivalent of plumege? Surely a sign of at least interest) But ...

TomMcGiverin replies on Apr 14, 2019:

@LadyAlyxandrea Speaking of tired, if you snooze now and let this rare specimen of a man who is not the typical uncompatible Kansas man slip away, you will be kicking yourself later while fully rested when you are open to a relationship and there appear to be nothing left but Trump supporters and Bible thumpers....

I tell people "oh I'm open to the idea of a relationship I'm not closed off or letting my past ...

LadyAlyxandrea comments on Apr 14, 2019:

He's mighty friendly, comes over to my office at least 6 or 7 times through the night and chats. Showed me his pics of his marine uniforms (I believe if men were birds this prominent display of honorable and respected attire is the equivalent of plumege? Surely a sign of at least interest) But ...

TomMcGiverin replies on Apr 14, 2019:

Then why aren't you making the jump? Only you know the answer to that ?

Hi all.

TomMcGiverin comments on Apr 12, 2019:

My reasons for opposing the death penalty are not related to rehabilitation at all, altho I do think it is admirable when a murderer does change, turn their life around, and devote themselves to helping others in prison as a way of making up for what they did. But my reasons, if it's not off-topic, ...

TomMcGiverin replies on Apr 14, 2019:

@Amisja Thank you, I get lucky once in a while. I stole part of my argument from the lyrics of Elvis Costello's song Let Him Dangle, a song against the death penalty.

I am so emotionally raw.

SKH78 comments on Apr 13, 2019:

It takes a lot of time to find someone. It is the pits, but that is life. Good friends and good intimate partners are difficult to find. Keep on trying and eventually you will find someone who is compatible with you.

TomMcGiverin replies on Apr 13, 2019:

No offense, but nowadays those just seem like nice words, " Keep on trying and.." I don't have any hope.

But Magic is no instrument.

aahouck49 comments on Apr 13, 2019:

Deiter add to that: if I have to hear what is your "bucket list"one more time I may go medieval on somebody! Yes my family had to same thing happen, and my niece and nephew are on their parents side of worshiping money and I just tell them please do not do that but they are not listening to auntie ...

TomMcGiverin replies on Apr 13, 2019:

My family has always valued money and appearances over heart and relationships, so that is why I have no contact with my siblings and little with my parents until they got old and sick, then they began to be more respectful and accepting of me, because with their changes in age and health they then needed me more. I then became more involved with them and the relationships improved, because the balance of power and need, so to speak, had shifted. But my siblings have not changed, so we remain estranged. That is why my friends have replaced my siblings and been my real family and support for my whole adult life.

Confronting The Current Dating World At 60 Years Of Age Raised in a family of fundamental ...

dare2dream comments on Apr 12, 2019:

I can relate! I too am a democratic socialist, secular humanist, futurist, and an idealist. I was widowed at 65 and thrown out into the obscure wilderness of the dating world without a playbook or compass and not knowing in which direction to go. I agree with your thoughts on politics and ...

TomMcGiverin replies on Apr 13, 2019:

@dare2dream For me, the in person kind of meeting women is probably not going to work. I don't have the confidence or skills anymore to approach women in person. Don't have any friends that could help me as matchmaker, except one friend who won't do it. And all of the interest groups that I already attend do not have any compatible women for me as far as age, being single, and any cultural things in common (being non-religious, liberal, disliking country music, not being very family-oriented, etc.). I need a big dating pool to have any chance of meeting the small number of women in my area that are my age and fellow hipsters and non-conformists.

Confronting The Current Dating World At 60 Years Of Age Raised in a family of fundamental ...

dare2dream comments on Apr 12, 2019:

I can relate! I too am a democratic socialist, secular humanist, futurist, and an idealist. I was widowed at 65 and thrown out into the obscure wilderness of the dating world without a playbook or compass and not knowing in which direction to go. I agree with your thoughts on politics and ...

TomMcGiverin replies on Apr 13, 2019:

@dare2dream I have joined a local Meetup group and am going to hear a band tonite with some members of it and maybe dance. Hopefully I can enjoy some support and encouragement from the group's meetings and informal social events like tonite. Maybe also make a friend or two that I can share phone support with and meet some for coffee or a meal between group meetings. The group is for singles of all types, tho it's called Dating After Divorce, and is open to widowed like me. The vast majority of them are divorced, female, and way younger than me. Also almost all of them are Christian too. So, never going to find anyone to date there out of the 40-50 people that regularly show up at the group. The group is run and founded by a dating and relationship coach. I am going to work with her as a client for a month or two and see if she can help me some. My friends are all married and they either don't get it as far as the dating struggles and/or don't want to hear about it very much. So I need the support of this group. As far as widows, I must disagree somewhat with you. My experience on Match with widows is not that they are unkind or as closed or defensive as many divorced women. My experience with the widowed women is that they do usually wait quite a while after the death to start dating again and they get pretty comfortable with being on their own. So they seem more ambivalent about dating than the divorced women. I have chatted with several of them thru Match and then they decide to not meet with me or drop off the dating site, saying that after chatting with me and other men they don't think they are ready to date yet. Maybe those women do remain married to their dead spouse, Go figure... I may try Our Time after my Match membership runs out, because even tho Match has a deeper pool than Our Time, I am starting to see that as I get older Match is beginning to run short of women who are old enough for me and can't come up with enough new matches for me that are my age.

The face that deserves a boot will be putting his in yours.

brentan comments on Apr 13, 2019:

How do we deal with the accusation that he put many lives at risk by his disclosures? Can it be ignored? I think people view what he did as a 'mixed bag' and conclude that he did more good than harm. We could trust these details to be untangled in court if we could trust the courts to do it outside ...

TomMcGiverin replies on Apr 13, 2019:

@WilliamCharles It will now be " How many fingers, Julian..".

The face that deserves a boot will be putting his in yours.

brentan comments on Apr 13, 2019:

How do we deal with the accusation that he put many lives at risk by his disclosures? Can it be ignored? I think people view what he did as a 'mixed bag' and conclude that he did more good than harm. We could trust these details to be untangled in court if we could trust the courts to do it outside ...

TomMcGiverin replies on Apr 13, 2019:

@WilliamCharles Damn right. I know he won't get a fair trial and I doubt it will even be a public trial. Also, like with Bradley Manning, the corporate media will probably ignore it unless it can be used to make him look bad. If the trial is public and his defense is allowed to present evidence about what he exposed, you can bet the media will avoid mentioning any of that in coverage. I doubt the court will allow any evidence about what Assange uncovered.

Hello! Welcome to spinter - spring/winter - or winring?

TomMcGiverin comments on Apr 12, 2019:

I know this is off-topic, but it's too bad we have only handful of members in this group that still actually live in Iowa. It would be nice to have a meetup sometime in Des Moines, but I'm not holding my breath....

TomMcGiverin replies on Apr 13, 2019:

@Donna_I Don't know right now. Feel free to message me about this instead.

Hello! Welcome to spinter - spring/winter - or winring?

TomMcGiverin comments on Apr 12, 2019:

I know this is off-topic, but it's too bad we have only handful of members in this group that still actually live in Iowa. It would be nice to have a meetup sometime in Des Moines, but I'm not holding my breath....

TomMcGiverin replies on Apr 13, 2019:

@Donna_I Everybody eats. Why not get together for a lunch some weekend at a modest to medium-priced restaurant?

Religious People On Dating Websites Are All Like...

KKGator comments on Apr 12, 2019:

I had to Google Joyce Meyer. I could have gone the rest of my life without knowing who she is, and I would have been completely content in my ignorance of her existence.

TomMcGiverin replies on Apr 13, 2019:

@Paul4747 Always loved that the Church Lady on SNL was played by a gay man, how ironic...

Having a sad today.

CarolinaGirl60 comments on Apr 12, 2019:

I tried talking to a few yesterday who are celebrating the signing of a bill in NC to ‘ban post birth abortion’. Of course there’s no such thing. I tried advocating Hospice care for fetus/infant that has no chance of survival, even if showing signs of life after induced ...

TomMcGiverin replies on Apr 13, 2019:

@CarolinaGirl60 I used to work in hospice too and my wife was in hospice for her final few months. I hear you. Quality, not quantity. There are worse things than death and I've seen them.

Having a sad today.

CarolinaGirl60 comments on Apr 12, 2019:

I tried talking to a few yesterday who are celebrating the signing of a bill in NC to ‘ban post birth abortion’. Of course there’s no such thing. I tried advocating Hospice care for fetus/infant that has no chance of survival, even if showing signs of life after induced ...

TomMcGiverin replies on Apr 13, 2019:

Confuse not the minds of the ignorant (or in this case, the deluded), they will only hate you for it.

How (and Why) Americans Were Taught to Hate Atheists

gearl comments on Apr 12, 2019:

I'm somebody that's old enough to vaguely remember Eisenhower. I can even remember the "I Like Ike" buttons that the kids in fourth grade were wearing in school. I tend to be an optimist and I really believe that maybe the tide will change. We have a gay man running for president and early polling ...

TomMcGiverin replies on Apr 13, 2019:

I hope you're right, but for the present we are in about the same place as queer people were in 1980 as far as America.

How (and Why) Americans Were Taught to Hate Atheists

TomMcGiverin comments on Apr 12, 2019:

I would be interested in polling data that said what % of Americans identified themselves as non-believers, Atheist or Agnostic. I'm guessing the total would still be about 5% or less. I know that in my area most people would still be distrustful or at least uncomfortable with you after finding out ...

TomMcGiverin replies on Apr 13, 2019:

@SeaGreenEyez You and I both live in the US, I think. I figured all the hoopla over the increase in nons and their overall size in the population was all hype. Thanks for the confirmation. My intuition and personal experience had already make me suspect that.

I am deeply troubled by the virulent efforts of the anti abortionist movement to criminalise women ...

Triphid comments on Apr 12, 2019:

Draconian laws in an equally Draconian Religiously indoctrinated State and Country in my opinion. A woman has the ONLY right to decide what happens within and to her body, it IS her body, her property, it belongs to her and to NO-ONE else.

TomMcGiverin replies on Apr 12, 2019:

I have read The Handmaid's Tale and also seen the movie. When it comes to restricting abortion, men should have no say whatsoever in it. They are not the ones who have to experience pregnancy, birth, or live with the raising of the child should the father choose to walk away, tho the man would still be financially responsible, which only provides more incentive for men to support abortion rights or stay out of the debate.

Confronting The Current Dating World At 60 Years Of Age Raised in a family of fundamental ...

TCameron comments on Apr 11, 2019:

Interesting. Apparently the profiles don't change at all from 30-60. They all say the same things. The one that gets me the most is "honesty." I am a blunt force instrument of honesty. I can't help myself. I call things just as I see them. And I can say without a doubt, that not one really wants ...

TomMcGiverin replies on Apr 12, 2019:

@TCameron Of course it goes both ways T. I like to think most of us here on Agnostic that participate on the boards understand this, but some don't and I get tired of always having to add that into any statement I make about my experience with women in online dating or make some qualifying statement about how my dating experience is only with women, etc. It should be obvious and as controversial as it is with some of the women on these threads. But I guess it always will be contentious because, as Gwendolyn once told me, some women just can't stand hearing the same comments about women from a man that they would otherwise agree with and accept hearing from a woman. When I run into that, it is not my problem that they have resentments and issues with men that color how they read and hear things. It says more about them than me. And I am also aware and honest enough to say that THAT also goes both ways on these boards. Some men can't handle critical comments about men in general or their behavior. I am secure enough in myself and self aware enough to not take those comments personally, but some other men aren't. I have no need or reason to defend men in general. It would be nice if more women on here were the same way, but I'm not holding my breath on the ones that I have already blocked or have blocked me.

Alright, I have to earn a place in the queue.

Patrick comments on Apr 12, 2019:

Not a fair question I guess, but it got me up and running on this site. I still suspect that some of you also wonder in your darkest mind and heart. I just hope I don't. Thanks for all the replies.

TomMcGiverin replies on Apr 12, 2019:

Check out Unitarian Universalism. Many of them, the ones who do believe in some kind of afterlife, believe there is no hell and that everyone gets into heaven. That is a doctrine that came from the Universalists, who merged their denomination with the Unitarians in 1961.

Alright, I have to earn a place in the queue.

TomMcGiverin comments on Apr 12, 2019:

Salvation won't be on my mind, hoping I'm not in pain, suffering, or alone probably will be.

TomMcGiverin replies on Apr 12, 2019:

@Patrick Not the first time I've been called hard core, but it's usually been about another subject or other times being called hard-headed.

Which is as it should be

Dew25 comments on Apr 12, 2019:

I'm a bit surprised at how many seem to disagree with this. Without nitpicking words, to me there is a clear idea here. I believe the best and enduring relationships are equal partnerships. In my experience and observation, problems and dissatisfaction, eventually always arise when one partner is ...

TomMcGiverin replies on Apr 12, 2019:

@Dew25 It is always available, esp. if both people are able-bodied, maybe even if they aren't, functioning, employable and equally-willing mature adults. Like John and Yoko said about ending war, it can be "If you want it". Sorry you got exploited during your marriages. My wife got sick of carrying most of the load with her previous hubby, the addict. He was a college professor who thought all he should contribute to the home and marriage was bring in the big bucks in his job. My wife got tired of being the homemaker and faculty wife, so she went back to college, started working, got her two degrees, bought a house without his help, and kicked his ass to the curb. She had really grown as a woman by the time I met her and she was not going to settle for less than an equal partner. She was a hell of a woman......

Which is as it should be

Dew25 comments on Apr 12, 2019:

I'm a bit surprised at how many seem to disagree with this. Without nitpicking words, to me there is a clear idea here. I believe the best and enduring relationships are equal partnerships. In my experience and observation, problems and dissatisfaction, eventually always arise when one partner is ...

TomMcGiverin replies on Apr 12, 2019:

You are ok with me, Dew. My marriage worked because we were an equal partnership and both wanted it that way. It was my first and only marriage and I was very pro-feminist and pro-equality already. My wife was divorced twice and was done with being the caretaker and being responsible for doing most of the work in the home or being the only responsible one in the relationship like she was with her alcoholic, drug addicted, cheating previous hubby. We split all the bills and expenses down the middle, she paid the bills, but we each saw everything about the finances and also shopped together for the groceries. I did all the outside stuff and some of the cleaning in the house. She cooked some and cleaned some in the house. I would not want or recommend any other arrangement that was much different than this. We both really wanted this to work and feel fair to both people and that was the key. Her two previous hubbies didn't and she also was, back then, not yet strong and independent enough to demand different or better as she was raised to be a traditional wife.

Confronting The Current Dating World At 60 Years Of Age Raised in a family of fundamental ...

TCameron comments on Apr 11, 2019:

Interesting. Apparently the profiles don't change at all from 30-60. They all say the same things. The one that gets me the most is "honesty." I am a blunt force instrument of honesty. I can't help myself. I call things just as I see them. And I can say without a doubt, that not one really wants ...

TomMcGiverin replies on Apr 12, 2019:

@TCameron I think you've nailed it T. What I see on the paid dating sites is many women who seem to have decided after their divorce that they want the perfect man this time around who will accept and tolerate them with no compromise on their part so that it will all be magic and roses. Of course, these women also show no signs of having gotten any therapy since their divorce, much less taken a look at themselves and decided to make any changes in themselves.

As you grow older you realize there is a role for everyone you meet in life.

LenHazell53 comments on Apr 12, 2019:

Sweet dreams are made of this Who am I to disagree? I travel the world And the seven seas, Everybody's looking for something. Some of them want to use you Some of them want to get used by you Some of them want to abuse you Some of them want to be abused. Annie Lennox

TomMcGiverin replies on Apr 12, 2019:

I like Annie's better...

Confronting The Current Dating World At 60 Years Of Age Raised in a family of fundamental ...

TCameron comments on Apr 11, 2019:

Interesting. Apparently the profiles don't change at all from 30-60. They all say the same things. The one that gets me the most is "honesty." I am a blunt force instrument of honesty. I can't help myself. I call things just as I see them. And I can say without a doubt, that not one really wants ...

TomMcGiverin replies on Apr 12, 2019:

@TCameron No problem, T, I did not take it that you were suggesting that to me at all.

Confronting The Current Dating World At 60 Years Of Age Raised in a family of fundamental ...

linxminx comments on Apr 12, 2019:

I stopped trying to date a couple years ago, but before that, also tried the online dating websites. Based on your comments on women's profiles, they sound amazingly similar to men's profiles, with one exception. Male profiles also had a "resume-like" quality to them: Financially independent - ...

TomMcGiverin replies on Apr 12, 2019:

I agree with you too, linxminx, it goes both ways and our culture is very toxic. I don't fall into it, but many people do on the dating sites and it does become a game for them of draw in, devalue, discard. Also our society has totally become disposable about relationships and people in general.

People who have been single too long are.....

TomMcGiverin comments on Apr 11, 2019:

I am very open, interested in and ready to date someone if the right woman/women would give me a chance. But it's a two player game and I just don't seem to be able to compete with other men on Batch for the almost all the women I keep messaging and getting ignored or rejected by. And it's not ...

TomMcGiverin replies on Apr 12, 2019:

@Nukdookum I think Cast1es was trying to bait and bully me into trying to defend myself or prove my worth as a partner to my late wife, as you are also trying to do here. I don't need to prove or justify anything about myself to you either, so nice try. Enjoy your block too.

People who have been single too long are.....

BufftonBeotch comments on Apr 12, 2019:

I can really agree with this. Having a man in your life might as be like having a 6 foot toddler. Piss on the toilet seat. Dropped laundry everywhere. I want this?

TomMcGiverin replies on Apr 12, 2019:

Tooreen's right. That's not a man, that's an overgrown brat.

People who have been single too long are.....

TomMcGiverin comments on Apr 11, 2019:

I am very open, interested in and ready to date someone if the right woman/women would give me a chance. But it's a two player game and I just don't seem to be able to compete with other men on Batch for the almost all the women I keep messaging and getting ignored or rejected by. And it's not ...

TomMcGiverin replies on Apr 12, 2019:

@Cast1es You are trying to put words into my mouth. I never said that I am what every woman needs or wants. Nobody is. Nobody is compatible with everyone. I do know from my one LTR of 22 years that I do have a lot of positive things to offer someone who is compatible with me that IS seeking a partner or someone to spend time with or share their life with. Presumably, Cast1es, that is part of or most of why women are on paid dating sites, wouldn't you agree? I had a good, happy marriage and I have no need to prove or explain anything about that or myself to you. Some women grow to be cynical about all men and believe nothing is good or honest about them. Those women should probably stay alone and not try to date, like the ones in that singles group I mentioned. I can see you are trying to bait me and push me into a fight so you can play the victim and get me punished. Nice try, you're blocked instead. I won't fall for it like I did with demifeministgal.

Confronting The Current Dating World At 60 Years Of Age Raised in a family of fundamental ...

dare2dream comments on Apr 12, 2019:

I can relate! I too am a democratic socialist, secular humanist, futurist, and an idealist. I was widowed at 65 and thrown out into the obscure wilderness of the dating world without a playbook or compass and not knowing in which direction to go. I agree with your thoughts on politics and ...

TomMcGiverin replies on Apr 12, 2019:

I agree with very much of what you've said and I also share your experience, widowed two years ago after a 22 year relationship, 19 year marriage. I feel so alien here in central Iowa where the vast majority of women on Batch seem like they are from a different culture, few of the divorced ones open to dating someone widowed (for whatever reasons), vast majority of them religious and not open to dating someone Agnostic, vast majority of them very family-oriented and only interested in dating a man who has kids, even with his and her kids are all grown adults, because they seem to want the man more as an escort to visit their adult kids and grandkids with than as a partner to do couple stuff with away from family. On top of that add that I am a non-drinker who is very tolerant and accepting of moderate and social drinkers after being happily married to one, but almost no women on Batch my age will accept a man who is not at least a social drinker, no matter what I tell them about my late wife's social drinking. It seems they just have to have someone who shares that lifestyle trait with them, and probably also their friends and family as well. My guess is that all the women my age in Iowa who want a non-drinking partner are all in AA and find their men to date in the program rather than on a dating site. I would add one caveat to what you said, and that is that the women my age who are widowed are way less bitter, sour, or jaded than the ones who are divorced. I think a lot of that is their armor they carry to protect themselves from being hurt again and few of them have gotten the therapy they should have sought to deal with it. But right now I'm at an age where there aren't that many widowed women to choose from in my age group. Plus, the widowed women tend to be picky also because most of them seem to wait quite a while after being widowed before they try to date. So even tho they are kinder to men, they are usually very settled into being on their own and will be very deliberate and selective about who they will date and how they proceed. Which is understandable and fine by me, I just wish there were more of them in comparison to the divorced women on Batch. I am indeed a stranger in a strange land......But I've lived in Iowa my whole life and always been an alienated person from the mainstream culture and lifestyle too, for the most part. The thing is, once I met my late wife, it didn't matter anymore at all, until I lost her. The continued support of my several friends help some with that, but it's not the same as having a partner, not by a long shot....

Confronting The Current Dating World At 60 Years Of Age Raised in a family of fundamental ...

Reignmond comments on Apr 11, 2019:

I can appreciate your feeling on dating. Between Christians, gay women, transexuals, women who lie about not being married, personality issues, women who might think it is harrassment if you say "Hi"...I just am not even motivated to try to date. The few good women I know were taken a long time ago ...

TomMcGiverin replies on Apr 12, 2019:

Sadly, you are right about a lot of the women on paid dating sites, as well as the same for men. It goes both ways. As Literate Hiker said not that long ago, when you get to dating after age 40 or when the prospects are mostly divorced, you are dealing mostly with leftovers who are divorced or never married for good reasons relating to their faults. The better prospects tend to be there when we are very young or at the age where most of the singles are widowed as far as being good quality partners.

Confronting The Current Dating World At 60 Years Of Age Raised in a family of fundamental ...

TCameron comments on Apr 11, 2019:

Interesting. Apparently the profiles don't change at all from 30-60. They all say the same things. The one that gets me the most is "honesty." I am a blunt force instrument of honesty. I can't help myself. I call things just as I see them. And I can say without a doubt, that not one really wants ...

TomMcGiverin replies on Apr 11, 2019:

I have no interest in hookups or ever trying a hookup site, but with paid dating sites I have experienced much of the same shit as you, probably because we are both in the same level of looks, no offense meant to you, but that is how most women play the game on the paid sites. The average-looking or above women almost all ignore us and go after the guys who are at least 7s or 8s. Like you, I am also honest to a fault and say so in my profile, but it gets me nowhere. Unlike you tho, I try and usually succeed in holding myself back from saying things in messages to women on paid sites that I think might offend them, while at the same time I am always honest about telling them what my values are, that I am not religious, my political category, my taste in music, my not being very family-oriented, my non-drinking, and my lack of being that interested in college sports, like most women I run across on paid sites. That results in a lot of dealbreakers when I get to the point of trading messages with women who do actually reply to me. Almost never end up meeting in person. 6 women in 18 months. I'm with you T, I'm baffled at what they really want and are seeking in men. I know that another strike against me is that almost all of the women with kids, even adult kids who are gone, don't seem to want a man who doesn't have kids. And 75% of the women I see on paid sites my age have kids. So at least you have that going for you, unlike me.

I love the new Justice Dems.

bobwjr comments on Apr 10, 2019:

Old guard may need to go

TomMcGiverin replies on Apr 10, 2019:

@gigihein I agree, I won't vote for corrupt corporate Dems anymore, at any level of fed office. Until most voters do the same and vote third party or for independent candidates, the Dems will not change their ways. The lesser evil argument is very effective and allows them to stay this way. We need more like AOC to primary the ass of corporate Dems also.

Just be you✌❤

Sticks48 comments on Apr 10, 2019:

This is exactly what I have done...This is why I live in a van down by the river.

TomMcGiverin replies on Apr 10, 2019:

You and Chris Farley's SNL character.....

Music is a weapon ✌❤

TomMcGiverin comments on Apr 10, 2019:

Music is one of the things that have made life worth living for most of my life. Life without, such as if I were deaf, would be unimagineable, if not unbearable...

TomMcGiverin replies on Apr 10, 2019:

@creative51 Sounds wise.

This...character is more important that reputation or looks.

TomMcGiverin comments on Apr 9, 2019:

True that, but I also care about my reputation to the degree that if someone slanders me and I hear about it, I will be looking them up or contacting them to let them know about it, and, as Clint said in Gran Torino, it's going to get ugly, at least verbally......As far as looks, let's not kid ...

TomMcGiverin replies on Apr 10, 2019:

@Cabsmom I might have gotten distracted and misplaced my comment as far as the statements on looks. I think I was responding there to something Sticks said about attraction, so I should have placed my comment in reply to his comment. Sorry, my goof...

Music is a weapon ✌❤

TomMcGiverin comments on Apr 10, 2019:

Music is one of the things that have made life worth living for most of my life. Life without, such as if I were deaf, would be unimagineable, if not unbearable...

TomMcGiverin replies on Apr 10, 2019:

@creative51 Good thing you got that MRI. I guy I knew from a Unitarian church had a tumor like that and he needed a surgery to remove it and it has been growing. He ended up getting a cochlear implant I think.

Music is a weapon ✌❤

TomMcGiverin comments on Apr 10, 2019:

Music is one of the things that have made life worth living for most of my life. Life without, such as if I were deaf, would be unimagineable, if not unbearable...

TomMcGiverin replies on Apr 10, 2019:

@creative51 Really ironic and unusual that, unlike most musicians, your deafness in the one ear was not caused by excessive noise but by a tumor. I bet most people just assume the former in your case unless they hear about the tumor.

Music is a weapon ✌❤

TomMcGiverin comments on Apr 10, 2019:

Music is one of the things that have made life worth living for most of my life. Life without, such as if I were deaf, would be unimagineable, if not unbearable...

TomMcGiverin replies on Apr 10, 2019:

@creative51 Good for you. I'm glad the deafness in one ear did not ruin music for you.

Music is a weapon ✌❤

Sticks48 comments on Apr 10, 2019:

It has been my life and still is. The only time all the bad shit gets blocked out is when I am playing. Sex can do the same thing, but I can't do that for three or four hours. The set up and tear down are a lot easier for sex. A lot less equipment required, and you don't need roadies.

TomMcGiverin replies on Apr 10, 2019:

I don't play an instrument Sticks, never learned any, probably one of my bigger regrets, but I feel the same way about singing. I can totally relate.

Ugh! I'm so mad.

mischl comments on Apr 9, 2019:

The only person I get to make fun of is me. And frankly, I'm hysterical.

TomMcGiverin replies on Apr 9, 2019:

I'll bet you are.....

Ugh! I'm so mad.

Nukdookum comments on Apr 9, 2019:

Some people don't get it. All humans deserve respect and dignity. Whether you agree with their life choices or not.

TomMcGiverin replies on Apr 9, 2019:

dep@Nukdookum I can agree with and accept your standards for how to treat criminals like those, like I said, glad there are penitentiaries. Doesn't mean I will still feel respect for them personally. I agree that treating them barbarically with public abuse does degrade our society. Don't agree with you that the death penalty is right or ever justified for a few reasons. One, it doesn't bring anybody back. Two, it doesn't make anyone even with the murderer. Three, it has often been the case that corrupt or authoritarian governments have used the death penalty unfairly to kill their political opponents. Four, innocent people have been executed and later proved innocent. Either all life is sacred or none of it it, is my argument to the Christians who oppose abortion but support the death penalty. In my mind, everything that lives has some value, but I wouldn't go far enough to say that they are sacred.....

Ugh! I'm so mad.

Nukdookum comments on Apr 9, 2019:

Some people don't get it. All humans deserve respect and dignity. Whether you agree with their life choices or not.

TomMcGiverin replies on Apr 9, 2019:

@WonderWartHog99 You have a point, there are some people that, even if they, or others who are familiar with them, believe that Jesus loves this monstrous person, I still think that they are garbage wrapped in skin when they behave this way towards others. I do not support the death penalty, but you're right I will not respect them like other innocent people and will treat them like the pariah and monster they are. Like Richard Pryor once said, " Thank God we have penitentiaries".

This...character is more important that reputation or looks.

ToolGuy comments on Apr 9, 2019:

I do not agree with the minimizing of reputation as “only” what people think of you. It can open and close doors.

TomMcGiverin replies on Apr 9, 2019:

It sure can. That's why civil law has slander and libel suits, so those who lie and harm others by aiding in the wrongful closing of doors to others based on lies can be punished financially. If someone slanders me, even if I suffer no financial harm and can't sue them, I will confront them simply as a matter of honor and wanting to let them know that I heard about it, will let others know what they did, and will pay them back if possible by exposing what kind of lying person they are, so they might think twice about doing it again.

And so it goes....

TomMcGiverin comments on Apr 8, 2019:

I can relate. I am generally very articulate when speaking, but have always and continue to be tongue-tied when I try speaking to a great-looking woman that I am attracted to. If the woman is unavailable tho, it's no problem speaking to her because I know there is no potential and nothing on the ...

TomMcGiverin replies on Apr 9, 2019:

@LetzGetReal We shall see.. I am having a phone appt. on Thur. with the dating and relationship coach that leads the Meetup group for dating that I just joined. I will be talking with her about coming in to see her and discuss my Match profile, my struggles with online dating, and see what she advises. If it ends up helping or I feel brave, I will share about it on the forum.

And so it goes....

TomMcGiverin comments on Apr 8, 2019:

I can relate. I am generally very articulate when speaking, but have always and continue to be tongue-tied when I try speaking to a great-looking woman that I am attracted to. If the woman is unavailable tho, it's no problem speaking to her because I know there is no potential and nothing on the ...

TomMcGiverin replies on Apr 9, 2019:

@LetzGetReal Thanks. I doubt I ever will change. It's reflexive and involuntary, always has been. I think most gorgeous women find it cute and amusing, but it's never won anyone over or led to them wanting to date me. Water seeks and ends up at its own level, at least in my experience.

This doesn't concern you ...

nogod comments on Apr 8, 2019:

lsn't this illegal in most states??

TomMcGiverin replies on Apr 8, 2019:

I'm ok with anything between consenting, competent adults, but not with human on animal......I have too much regard and caring for animals, esp. cats....

How do you deal with manspreading?

Lutherzme comments on Apr 8, 2019:

Tasers work well.

TomMcGiverin replies on Apr 8, 2019:

If only the right passengers were allowed to have them or the flight staff were willing and able to use them on the right people. Unfortunately, the airlines don't want to get sued and if a passenger brought one on and used it, they would be thrown off the plane and go to jail....

I honestly always forget this place can technically be used as a dating app.

bobwjr comments on Apr 8, 2019:

Yeah but you would have no problem for it.great ?group

TomMcGiverin replies on Apr 8, 2019:

Bob's right. With your looks you would get tons of attention on any dating site. The question is, depending on which area you lived in, would be if you got the race and quality of man that you wanted, including the same as you on religion.

I know we'd have threads before about dealbreakers in dating relationships.

BitFlipper comments on Apr 7, 2019:

I list myself as "agnostic" on dating sites. I've received several stern rebukes from women who claimed to be "christian", but who didn't list any such requirement in their profiles. I've learned to expect rejections and non-responses, but these jeezus rejections seem especially cruel. They seem ...

TomMcGiverin replies on Apr 8, 2019:

@BitFlipper Totally agree about the label part, that's all it is for many of them. Just a way of fitting in with the mainstream culture....

I know we'd have threads before about dealbreakers in dating relationships.

BitFlipper comments on Apr 7, 2019:

I list myself as "agnostic" on dating sites. I've received several stern rebukes from women who claimed to be "christian", but who didn't list any such requirement in their profiles. I've learned to expect rejections and non-responses, but these jeezus rejections seem especially cruel. They seem ...

TomMcGiverin replies on Apr 8, 2019:

I always hate it when someone leaves out important info in their profile, whether due to being lazy, careless or evasive, that might help the other person know if the person might be compatible. I have run into a few women on Batch that have identified themselves as Christian in their profile, but also selected the profile trait " Spiritual, but not Religious", as one of the categories under religious preference that they were interested in for a partner. But after they found out I was an Agnostic, after listing my category for my own affiliation as Spritual, but not Religious, the women said I was not compatible. I told them I thought they were being dishonest in how they did their profile and they got mad and said they were honest and I had not been, so I was the one in the wrong. In each case, the woman had nothing in their profile essay about their faith being very strong or very important to them, so I felt they were each just kind of making up their reasons as they went along in the conflict, so it really doesn't matter. They didn't want me and they were not going to be honest and truthful about their reasons for rejecting me. I told them each that they might want to spell out in their profile essay how important their religion and faith were to them, but none of them ever did that after I checked their profiles a week later.

I shared this in a comment, but @sassygirl3869 thought it merited center stage.

Deiter comments on Apr 7, 2019:

Everyone can’t be on the outside. Someone has to be the inside for all the outsiders to stand apart from. Of course, there’s a word for those who start off by asking about *things that make you cry*: Unsocialized. When I was young I loathed small talkers. But small talk is just a bridge ...

TomMcGiverin replies on Apr 7, 2019:

@Deiter Totally agree with that. I hate small talk, but I have learned to put up with it or just walk away once I have exhausted it and move on. I see it as the price to pay until I run across another equally deep and compatible person that can have a real conversation.

I've read posts by several ladies on this site who have made various comments about their "FWB.

nogod comments on Apr 7, 2019:

Reading all your posts, there seems to be a very fine line between the two.

TomMcGiverin replies on Apr 7, 2019:

@nogod I'm game and will look into it the next time I visit my father in your town. We might be able to work one in. I'll PM you about it.

I've read posts by several ladies on this site who have made various comments about their "FWB.

icolan comments on Apr 7, 2019:

That is not a friend with benefits, that is prostitution. Friends with benefits are two people who get together for sex but have no interest in pursuing a romantic relationship. Nothing to do with money or dating, just mutually satisfying sex.

TomMcGiverin replies on Apr 7, 2019:

Well said, best definition here.

I've read posts by several ladies on this site who have made various comments about their "FWB.

nogod comments on Apr 7, 2019:

Reading all your posts, there seems to be a very fine line between the two.

TomMcGiverin replies on Apr 7, 2019:

@nogod I think the sugar daddy or sugar mama situations, depending on the gender of the person paying, are sort of a relationship variation of prostitution, but even tho I would never go for it as a participant, it's legal and not my business. I think in most cases both parties are pretty clear on what the arrangement disguised as a relationship really is.

I've read posts by several ladies on this site who have made various comments about their "FWB.

EyesThatSmile comments on Apr 7, 2019:

I would never want to be paid for FWB. Being treated as a prostitute would bother me immensely. However, I once found out a man I was FWB with had previously paid prostitutes...which all of a sudden made me feel like a piece of very cheap meat. As a good friend, he was reassuring...but ...

TomMcGiverin replies on Apr 7, 2019:

I'm with you. I need the emotional security. Others mileage may very and that's fine with me.

I've read posts by several ladies on this site who have made various comments about their "FWB.

bleurowz comments on Apr 7, 2019:

That's not FWB, that's a business transaction.

TomMcGiverin replies on Apr 7, 2019:

Agreed. It would count as prostitution in my book, but then again I am for legalizing it anyway as long as it's regulated.......

The Dating Life:

aahouck49 comments on Apr 7, 2019:

What is going on with this date site? I only joined this site, agnostic 3 weeks ago today, and have been on other date sites, the reason I came to this site, and grateful to have found it, I was not looking for a date site, but to find people like me, in the hopes that I was not alone out here, and ...

TomMcGiverin replies on Apr 7, 2019:

@Deiter That or maybe a stronger measure...

Would you say this is accurate?

ElusiveMoby comments on Apr 7, 2019:

Absolutely not. In fact, the man I choose will have enormous intellectual prowess. Intelligence is sexier than physical features. I certainly hope I'm chosen for my intelligence as well.

TomMcGiverin replies on Apr 7, 2019:

You are both. Many women on the paid sites put lots of pics in their profile and are clearly showing off their assets because that is all they have or feel they have to attract men. No wonder that the men they do attract are only after them for sex.

Do you have trouble taking that first step?

Sticks48 comments on Apr 6, 2019:

I agree with you about everything. I dislike this on line "dating" with a passion. Real life is much easier.

TomMcGiverin replies on Apr 7, 2019:

@Sticks48 I hear you. I've been on Batch for 18 months. Try that on for size. I chatted with a woman about a year ago on Batch that had already been on there three years. She is still on there and active as I have run across her profile and verified that she is still active. I even told her back when she chatted with me for a while that I think she is too picky. She disagreed of course, even tho she has gotten way more interest than me there and met way more men than I have women. She rejected me as a match before we even began trading a few messages just discussing the site and the dating process. My guess is my looks weren't good enough since she didn't bring up any dealbreakers.

Do you have trouble taking that first step?

Sticks48 comments on Apr 6, 2019:

I agree with you about everything. I dislike this on line "dating" with a passion. Real life is much easier.

TomMcGiverin replies on Apr 7, 2019:

@Sticks48 Hell no... and that's the problem. On the paid sites, all you get is profiles with pics. It gets too much like shopping thru a catalog where you have many similar items to choose from and all you can do is look thru the catalog and try to pick which items are a match for you based on the limited info and the pics that are in the profile. Women get so overwhelmed with all the choices and messages they get from different men that I think they just throw up their hands and decide to only reply to the men who have the most attractive photos because that is the easiest way for them to wade thru the catalog and not have to reply to dozens of messages a week and view a hundred profiles a week. I really wish the paid sites had forums, but they don't want to spend the time, money, and trouble on dealing with forums. So, if your main photo, which goes out with each message you send along with your username, age, and city is not at least above average-looking, you will usually get your message read, about two-thirds of the time, but you will only get your profile read in response to your message about half the time. You will get a reply about 10% of the time, after some of the women have read your profile. Of course, nobody messages you back until they have read your profile. As Gwendolyn said a while back on these boards, looks really matter a lot and few women who are above average or even average-looking will bother messaging a guy who is average-looking. They keep chasing someone better than average with their interest and their messaging. And yes, Sticks, I'll save you the trouble of saying it, it goes both ways in general.......

Do you have trouble taking that first step?

Sticks48 comments on Apr 6, 2019:

I agree with you about everything. I dislike this on line "dating" with a passion. Real life is much easier.

TomMcGiverin replies on Apr 7, 2019:

@Sticks48 I could be wrong, but I just think the staff at Our Time doesn't really care about the scammers, but on Batch they seem to really keep on top of them. That may be why Match is a little more expensive than Our Time even if the same conglomerate owns them both. Plus, Batch has a much larger member pool, at least in my area, maybe three times as many.

Do you have trouble taking that first step?

Sticks48 comments on Apr 6, 2019:

I agree with you about everything. I dislike this on line "dating" with a passion. Real life is much easier.

TomMcGiverin replies on Apr 7, 2019:

@Sticks48 I would think the male scammers would also be easy to spot, but I wouldn't know. The ladies who are on paid sites would have to answer that. I know that Our Time had a fair number of female scammers and the site did not seem to do much to get rid of them, not like Batch does. And both sites are owned by the same company. The female scammers on Our Time would be on there for a while each.

Do you have trouble taking that first step?

Sticks48 comments on Apr 6, 2019:

I agree with you about everything. I dislike this on line "dating" with a passion. Real life is much easier.

TomMcGiverin replies on Apr 7, 2019:

@Sticks48 The women I was talking about that were so reluctant to meet were from Batch, not Agnostic, but I suppose they have run into scammers on there too. As a man, I have run into very few scammers on Batch, and when I run across them, they disappear quickly and we don't end up even trading messages because when I don't reply they move on. Women on Match have no reason to fear me as a scammer because scammers have much more attractive pics than me.

Do you have trouble taking that first step?

BoingoOingo42 comments on Apr 6, 2019:

Since my divorce a number of years ago I have only had a few dates. In those cases I was able to ask the women out. Now, though, I haven't had a date in a couple of years and the women I have an interest in don't seem to have any reciprocal interest so I haven't asked. That might be a mistake but...

TomMcGiverin replies on Apr 7, 2019:

@BoingoOingo42 I agree about Match, but I will never meet anyone from Agnostic unless they move to my area or a bunch of new women my age join from my area. Hasn't happened in the last two years and I hear that, if anything, Agnostic's membership growth has really slowed down in the last months. I really don't have any interest in messaging women from Agnostic that live far away when so few of them are likely to be both interested in me and in moving to Iowa. I get enough rejection as it is with Match. If someone far away approached me on this site and said they were really interested in me and in maybe relocating for someone, I might be open to it. I guess I would have to be approached first and have it be someone that really interested me. Not likely. I have told several women on Agnostic that I would want to meet and try dating them if they lived in my area, and nobody has offered to try LD dating with me or said they would consider relocating for me. I guess right now I just really don't have the courage and confidence to try LD dating with someone from Agnostic, at least not if they live further than MN, ILL, or WI. And only then if they were interested in relocating to Iowa anyway. I wouldn't be able to deal with the disappointment of making the long trips and having it not work out. I'm probably better off putting my efforts into meeting women that already live in my area.

Do you have trouble taking that first step?

NoMagicCookie comments on Apr 6, 2019:

Thoughts? Most everybody on this site is located hundreds of miles away so, although I find quality women worthy of my time, I do not PM them as they are just too far away. I've chatted with a few quality women who messaged me but all live over a thousand miles from my location so all ...

TomMcGiverin replies on Apr 7, 2019:

@BeeHappy Thanks, and you're welcome. What's so cool and cute about this couple is that neither of them is quite even average-looking, yet they both are perfect for each other and seem so drawn to each other. Just the thing for my cynical, romantic, weary heart.....

Do you have trouble taking that first step?

Sticks48 comments on Apr 6, 2019:

I agree with you about everything. I dislike this on line "dating" with a passion. Real life is much easier.

TomMcGiverin replies on Apr 7, 2019:

@Sticks48 I've never really engaged with anyone on Agnostic that lived in my area long or far enough to run into that, but I hear you. With paid sites, I have run into that a few times where the women insisted on messaging for quite a while before meeting. In all those cases, we never ended up meeting, so I hear you and agree about wanting to get to the meeting as soon as the dealbreakers have already been discussed and cleared with messaging. It shouldn't take more than a few messages each or maybe that as well as one phone call at most, unless you are dealing with someone that has big trust issues. And those are probably not worth meeting anyway.

Do you have trouble taking that first step?

Sticks48 comments on Apr 6, 2019:

I agree with you about everything. I dislike this on line "dating" with a passion. Real life is much easier.

TomMcGiverin replies on Apr 7, 2019:

Now that I'm way older and widowed, I just don't have the confidence and skills to approach women IRL. especially strangers. I guess I would rather have the rejection online than in person. But the longer I try online, the wearier I am getting of making the effort of messaging women when my rejection rate of no reply is 90%. I have little hope these days..

Do you have trouble taking that first step?

Silver1wun comments on Apr 6, 2019:

Thoughts and experiences? Thoughts are that there are too many men, compared to the number of women, initiating contact and of the kinds that give the rest of us (men) a hurdle to overcome that is much more anxious than merely being the first to reach out. Male and female priorities are completely ...

TomMcGiverin replies on Apr 7, 2019:

You speak a lot of truth and wisdom and very articulately.

Do you have trouble taking that first step?

Cabsmom comments on Apr 6, 2019:

I've initiated contact here and on other sites a few times. My fear is the first face to face meeting. However, if we've talked on the phonea few times, that fear is greatly reduced.