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You can be a realist and a believer at the same time

Having a sense for reality and believing in gods, goblins or spirits of ancestors may be mutually exclusive from a scientific or logical point of view, but it is NOT contradictory from a more practical point of view.

Take hunter-gatherers as an example: They known their natural environment better than anybody else, they are 100% realists in this regard. But at the same time they believe in a host of supernatural agents and entities. Is that a contradiction?
No, because the two world-views complement each other. If their beliefs in spirits or magic interfered negatively with their knowledge of the world around them, they would have died long ago, their cultures would have gone extinct.
But as far as we know, this kind of 'dual life' of being realist AND believer has been going on, quite successfully, for the last 40,000 years or so...

Matias 8 June 22
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16 comments

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0

If you call this success, you set a pretty low bar. If by success you mean survival, then when we are around as long as sharks, alligators, and crocodiles, then we have something to talk about.

0

As a younger man I used to use radio waves and how they penetrate everything invisibly as my evidence for a gateway into the supernatural. All that did was open the imagination of nonsense and today I no longer believe anything supernatural.
A lot of what the hunter-gatherers are doing is symbolic and a carry over of thousands of years. Most of them know this. They kill the noble beast for food and it's hide, paying homage to the creature because we are all in a "supply and demand" of nature itself. This is valid from the smallest to the greatest of all of us.

0

I think, by "realist", you mean "a practical person".

Yes, it is possible to be completely practical in your everyday life, while still believing that there is a big spirit in the sky running everything. Billions of people do it. But in the larger sense, you're still not a realist. A realist copes with the lack of a cosmic plan, the fact that there's no Apocalypse coming, the fact that we are not the center of the universe except in our imagination. A realist deals with real life.

2

No it's not possible. Hunter-gatherers don't know the reasons for what happens in their world, which is why they invent gods/spirits of the gaps.. And as far as the modern day world is concerned, their cultures have more or less gone extinct.

Not sure they have gone extinct. If you consider the deep seated religious inclinations of most farmers, you have to take into account the randomness of their livelihood. When your existence revolves around weather, insect populations and genetics of animals, hoping there is some kind of supernatural force out there protecting you from the worst of those random issues, I would guess, provides a certain amount of comfort. Praying for rain or anything else may have the same effect as doing a rain dance or flipping a coin to a realist (which I feel describes my outlook), I can understand where it might give solace to someone who's very life depends on it.

3

It's called compartmentalization. Many people think scientifically about some things, but superstitiously about other things. Scientists who go to church do not exercise the scientific method on Sunday mornings. If they did, they would not be going to church at all. They would disprove the superstitious claims of the church, and dismiss religion as a scam (to control people and get their donations).

3

I think there is a book about this archealogist's research on how a lot of the songs and myths of ancient people are really encoded memory palaces. There is no doubt that being a hunter/gatherer is tough... You have to have encyclopedic knowledge of the flora and fauna in your region to be effective at hunting and so you don't pick plants that will poison the tribe. So, she proposes that all of this information is encoded in songs and myths because it's easier to remember this information like that.

0

What did I just read? Okay. I know. You're just pulling our chain, right? Looking for reactions, right? Wanting to see how people respond to bullshit? Well, I won't give you the satisfaction by reacting to your nonsensical posits.

Waiter..! Waiter..! Check please.

@Matias -- With assertions such as this, what sort of discussion do you hope to elicit? Let's look at what you said and see how much if any sense can be made of it.

"Having a sense for reality and believing in gods, goblins or spirits of ancestors may be mutually exclusive from a scientific or logical point of view, but it is NOT contradictory from a more practical point of view."

Those two conditions; one of having knowledge of reality and the other of believing in imaginary things are not mutually exclusive scientifically. The posit you make has a built-in failure. Science deals with observation of what is, then attempts to explain the observation.

Observation: That human being chops and stacks wood for fuel to heat its habitat during the coming winter months. That human being is a realist. After finishing the task, it thanks the wood gods for providing the trees. That human being is now being unrealistic; superstitious. It is obvious from those observations that our sample is capable of being realistic and superstitious simultaneously.

As the sample is increased we find a range of observations from those who are total realists to those who are totally superstitious. We also find that we are unable to either falsify or quantify the differential in condition. All we can do is provide a means to quantify the group and we wind up with a curve that shows exceedingly few of each extreme at its ends and an average demonstrating a fairly even distribution of both traits. The best prediction we can hope to make is to suggest that the average of any random group will demonstrate this duality.

So, if we look at the definitions of the words we can find a logical exclusivity between them, but the observed condition eludes both science and logic. You would have been better off leaving out the science element and simply seeking a discussion on this aspect of the human condition. I was responding to the assertion, not the notion.

0

No just defective

Marine Level 8 June 22, 2018
1

I think Religion is based on fear of what they don't understand. When man lived in caves, and people were being killed by animals, weather, floods and so on. Then the smartest man in the cave looked into the stars and made up stories about God creator that comforted the ignorant cave dwellers. Then these cavedwellers did like the way other cavedwellers dressed or grunted. So they killed them. That is how Religion emerge with war, all based on fear.

@Matias
If not fear, then I don't know the greatest aspect draw to Religion. What is the greatest aspect draw to Religion?

Once Pope Francis canceled hell. There has been a great shift or decline in Religious thinking to critical thinking.
Can't imagine a worst concept than Hell. Going to war, is not that much of a fear for Religion.

@Matias

When I talk to most Christians or when Pope Francis is denying the existence of hell. It's nonsense to me when hell is written as much as heaven in the Bible. The doctrine of hell is so frightening that numerous heretical sects end up denying eternal hell or modified the doctrine of hell so radically that it is no longer a serious threat.

My thoughts have change too. The doctrine of Nationaism is more dangerous than Religion, quoted by Richard Dawkins. Much of the world is run by fear, not in my world, it is run by love.

2

Horseshit.
What a complete load of justification.

2

Excellent post! and just as meaningful today as it was throughout human evolution.

Niels Bohr:

I myself find the division of the world into an objective and a subjective side much too arbitrary. The fact that religions through the ages have spoken in images, parables, and paradoxes means simply that there are no other ways of grasping the reality to which they refer. But that does not mean that it is not a genuine reality. And splitting this reality into an objective and a subjective side won't get us very far.

5

Well that gave me a chuckle

Simon1 Level 7 June 22, 2018
1

Well that gave me a chuckle

Simon1 Level 7 June 22, 2018
10

Their beliefs in "a host of supernatural agents and entities" makes them by definition NOT 100% realists.
Instead they have a culture which attempts to explain what they do not understand by this means.
" If their beliefs in spirits or magic interfered negatively with their knowledge of the world around them, they would have died long ago, their cultures would have gone extinct."
Most have.
Others were contaminated by western culture. As soon as they saw the technological advancements it became impossible not to accept that the westerners had discovered something, they had Iron, steel tools, and so forth.
They ALSO had Gods, just different ones, which explain away the issues for which humans either lack answers or for which they find the answers so distasteful they prefer an assertion without evidence which they find more pleasant to an unpleasant and likely reality we cannot prove.

I do not see this as a dual life, but compartmentalized life. When it comes to your practical life, science is fine, put gas in your truck, bring the laundry in when it is dry.
When it comes to conceptual reality the notion of NO ABSOLUTE ANSWER scares the hell out of some folks. What happens when we die? (You dead) Is there an absolute justice? (no) these answers are unpalatable to many and they just prefer to think THEY are not responsible for making the world AS JUST AS POSSIBLE, instead they pawn it off on a God of some kind and remain cultural children "Its not OUR fault, Its God's mysterious will". To abandon this ideology is to assume a burden not a one of us can bear, and which we all have to strive to bear as one.

Some folks cannot face that, in the same way that some folks can't face test day, or big game day, or any other trial of life but magnified.

When you grow up in the cave you watch the shadows on the wall like everyone else. It takes both a curious mind and a determination of personality to turn around and see the entrance to that cave.

PS The Piraha people live in the Amazon and NEVER created any Gods for themselves.
Read "Don't sleep there are Snakes" The traditional "good night" greeting of the Piraha

Slow clap to you, sir, for having the patience to rebut that silly statement in a careful and well-reasoned manner.

@Matias They do have myths, but no supreme being as stated. Also noted in the spirit belief system (animisim), it is not to be taken as the old form european one, or as the asian one, and is very different in affect.

While what your saying is true “Xigagaí, one of the beings that lives above the clouds, was standing on a beach yelling at us, telling us that he would kill us if we go into the jungle.”
That was in fact the Shaman, who lived oputside the tribe.
No one took his words as factual, that is no one actually believed that a being lived above the clouds and told him things
However they DID take into account that he had knowledge.

The Piraha have a truly alien perspectivce, a unique language, social structure and cultural motif which lacks a supreme being, a God.

Warnings like the one Everett mentions are oft used to warn people off from something they FEEL is dangerous and are unable to articulate why.

ALSO, I did not present them as "the example of a culture without religion"
I said "The Piraha people live in the Amazon and NEVER created any Gods for themselves"

You are reading God as Religion and conflating the two.

@Matias Unfounded?
You--"I was absolutely sure that someone would come up with the Piraha people! Because they are always presented as the example of a culture without religion."

My intiital point - "PS The Piraha people live in the Amazon and NEVER created any Gods for themselves.
Read "Don't sleep there are Snakes" The traditional "good night" greeting of the Piraha"

I did not mention religion. I mentioned Gods, as in Supreme beings.

NOR did I say that people cannot be both realist on one hand and magical thinkers on the other, I said it requies a compartmentalized mind. Belief in Enteties is THE explantion for all the things they do not grasp (like modern humans in developed countries) It is a God of the Gaps filler.

That does not make them Realists. It makes them, and modern Christians Muslims, or what have you, capable of realistic thought.

4

So how do you explain my being a realist and NOT believing in supernatural agents and entities ?

@Matias
If they claimed the were non believers the were burnt at the stake. Case closed !

@Matias
Curiosty killed the cat, did you not know ?

5

Is contradictory when you start to spend resources in rituals and people that are has no function for society.

@Matias You are absolutely right, the rituals are useful, it creates community, but we can have the rituals without religion and spend the resources with the correct purpose and not because the guy that have a direct contact with the cosmic nany said so,

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