homicide is something that happens to humans. human tissue and non viable cells are not Human(note the capitalization) dispite being human tissue.

False equivalency. Also, Bodily autonomy is so inviolable as to forbid the harvesting of organs to save lives without consent, because another life does not have more value then your ability to own your own self.

You have failed sir.

@dellik nice response, deilik.

'nature hasn't done such a bad job with our species...' man, silver, what a statement. Politics aside for the moment, I assume you're referring to anatomy and physiology? I have a lot of respect for Mother Nature but, our systems are not perfection. For instance, I don't have a single female friend that's had an easy time of every stage/transitioning with the womens reproductive system.
To place circumcision in the same category as female genital mutilation is a sign of ignorance. Female genital mutilation is generally the removal or mutilation of female genitalia to punish or prevent the woman from having sex or from enjoying it. Female genital mutilation is just that, may be committed by male or female family members and typically not completed surgically but rather out of acts of violence. Circumcision is ritualistic removal of the foreskin of the penis, generally done by someone who's trained. Loss of the foreskin doesn't diminish feeling or manhood in the cultures that do this. In addition, do you have any idea about excess fold on the body? I'm a nurse. The things that develop in folds can be pretty awesome...little creatures that live off the flesh. I don't know the history of circumcision but I'd imagine when the Egyptians and then the Jews and then some Arab groups began the practice, there were health reasons associated with it.

@dellik All I have 'failed' to do is communicate with you. Given the barriers evident by your response, I will continue to fail.

After you familiarize with a dictionary, learn basic biology and human physiology and acquire the ability to think functionally we have no 'common ground' upon which to compare perspectives.

@crazycurlz O.K. Meshg, As usual, the erroneous notions are flying like confetti and one can hardly answer all of them. As suggested to dellik, I urge you to try developing the ability to think functionally. It begins with 'seeing' functionally and given the mechanistic way 'knowledge' is presented the task is difficult. Most of what I comment is functionally rooted. Focus on and naming of means and mechanism do not refute function but merely distract from it.

I like the qualification you made of 'anatomy and physiology' because that is exactly what I meant. Our 'systems' (bodily) are systems within a hierarchy of systems; many of which are human (read male) contrived, designed and imposed. As products of systems that are secondary and in varying degrees pathogenic, that we don't function well on many physical, emotional and psychological levels should not be surprising.

Your attempts to 'educate' me about mechanistically differing means and names for the same functional phenomena were unnecessary. I fully understood what you presented and more, before the exercise. It doesn't change function in any other way than degrees.

It matters not why, to what degree of barbarity, what kind of religious notions contribute to it, who performs it; be they Ancient Egyptians or ancient anybodies; be they contemporary mohel's infecting infants with genital herpes; be they physicians in sterile hospital environments or ignorant Islamic extremists in squalid huts with sharpened spoons. Mutilation of the genitalia of children for religious or any other crazy notion is still genital mutilation.

I especially enjoyed the observation: "Loss of the foreskin doesn't diminish feeling or manhood in the cultures that do this." The humor I see in it (functionally) relates to the humor women find in males pontificating on how this or that practice in our 'culture' doesn't diminish femininity. That you are a nurse gives you no superior platform from which to propagate notions about things of questionable or arguable validity. I'm no stranger to science or life sciences and don't feel the need to air 'credentials'. They have little to do with whether something is so. But actual knowledge does. My daughter has been a nurse for 27 years and we have many stimulating discussions and without mutuality of knowledge they wouldn't even happen.

What I find to be 'pretty awesome' is presumptuousness. It brings to mind a favorite Neitche -ism...

"And those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music." Music IS functionality. Instruments are mechanism.

@Silver1wun you are right, there is no common ground when you chose to accept fundamentally wrong information, and portray it as fact. Your failure to grasp basic biology and then blame shift is laughable at best, and should be humiliating, but I doubt you are self aware enough for that to be possible.

@dellik In basic biology one learms that there are differences between cells, "tissue", organs, systems and organisms.

Check any cell you like in an internally or extermally gestating infant, or for that matter, from a dying 90 year-old and the dna will confirm the source to have been an organism; in this case a human organism.

@Silver1wun thanks for proving my point, appreciate it =D

@crazycurlz your attempt to somehow make out that female circumcision is a "worse crime" than male circumcision is derisable. Have you got a foreskin? Have you experienced the degree of pleasure obtained with a sensitive foreskin compared to circumcised?
No. Nor do I see validation of such claim from authoritive sources.
Neither can I ever know and compare pre and post female circumcision pleasures. I know however that the sensitivity of the vagina, the G spot and the pelvic floor muscles are not affected.
You mention things breeding in body parts covered by flaps of skin. Yes there are wonderous things growing between the chest skin and underskin of women with oversized pendulous breasts. I don't hear you advocating that mastectomies be carried out on infant girls to ensure that this can never happen. The interesting reality is what is actually produced under the man's foreskin and what it is produced for. I can assure that in nearly 70 years of life the only problem that I have encountered has been recently and that was due to the medical profession and side effect of a drug prescribed by them that was claimed necessary.
As for health issues in ancient Arab and Jewish days I'm sure that lack of water and cleanliness allied to sexual satisfaction being safely derived from little boy's anuses probably did result in horrendous infection in the women also entered.

@dellik When you contribute something worthwhile please draw my attention to it. In the meantime please explain how someone who considers bullying abhorrent and "no tolerance for bullies" can say one word in defense of what is the greatest betrayal and act of bullying perpetrated on a man through being circumcised when most in need of protection?

@FrayedBear 1; I'll give you a dollar if you can show me anywhere I said anything in support of circumcision.
and 2; What on earth makes you think I give half a shit if you think my statements are 'worthwhile'

The bully here, is clearly the ancient inbreed that thinks his feelings are more important then bodily autonomy.

@FrayedBear and dear god, after reading your response to Crazycurls I see you are actually just a piece of shit racist, so I honestly don't give a single flying fuck what you think. Please wander off into the woods and die you fucking dinosaur.

@dellik you obviously understand english differently to me. I see that you are a god botherer inciting the word in your response. How do you draw this wonderfully "grasp at the last straw" ad hominem to prove your correctness?
I suspect that your response will keep me laughing for most of the day. Incidentally can you supply a photo or drawing of your "flying fuck" I'm sure that it will also create amusement.
Have you had counselling for your inherent and deep seated anger or ever considered that anger usually arises through your lack of understanding and knowledge?
?

@FrayedBear My experience is that anger management is not necessary when expectations and beliefs are managed. When people have a healthy, productive sexual aspect going on in their lives it is made most obvious by a state of repose, good cheer and congeniality. When it is in chaos, the opposite is the case. They are irritable, frustrated and lash-out at things that make them mildly uncomfortable. I saw it in nuns, as a child growing up under their 'care'... Women in our society are confronted with male over-reaching expectations and anger displayed when they are frustrated all the time.

A disposition towards being rude and abusive is also prevalent among males in sexually repressive cultures ruled by extremes of Islam, Christendom, Judaism, Hinduism and more. I cannot, for the life of me, understand why a person allegedly seeking friendship or closeness with females would display such a deeply rooted abusive attitude; especially in matters that relate to sexuality.

Most women, especially associated with this site, have 'been there and done that', unfortunately. If one has beliefs based on real understanding and expectations in close contact with reality, anger is a rare emotion.

One of my favorite observations of Dr. Reich, from clinical work:

"Irrationality and illusion are revealed by the intolerance and cruelty with which they are expressed. We observe that human thought systems show more tolerance as long as they adhere to reality. The more the thought process is removed from reality, the more intolerance and cruelty are needed to guarantee its continued existence." (1949)

I'd add to that something about immaturity if it wasn't so eloquently on display in the first place.

@FrayedBear Im sorry, you keep typing, but all I hear is 'im an ignorant inbreed'
Try again gramps. or dont, only one that cares what you have to say, is you.

@dellik Try having your eyes tested as you are reading not hearing or see a psychiatrist about your problem of mistaking sight for hearing. Perhaps like the man who thought that his wife was a hat you need a book title named after you. Sadly Dr Sacks is now dead. You are providing wonderful entertainment. Keep going young fellow. ?????

That
I
V

It’s equivalent to female genital mutilation— we KNOW that’s barbaric and done to suppress sexual enjoyment, mostly done for purity/religious purposes... if you think full stop FGM is wrong, why is MGM not? They both are. I originally didn’t think much of it until I read up on it from a friend being diehard against it.

@ScientistV Oh come on - it's not equivalent to FGM! If it was, the whole penis would have to be cut off......

@GoldenDoll incorrect, FGM is region specific, from removal of the clitoris, the removal of the labia,or stitching the labia majora closed after removal of the clitoris, and as there are mishaps, there are botched MGM in which the head of the penis is entirely removed or even more of the penis, either way— if you think removing parts of a little girl’s sex organs is wrong you SHOULD feel the same about doing that to a little boy.

@ScientistV well of course I feel the same about little boys. And I know all about the different forms of FGM thanks, first hand. My stepdaughter was an FGM victim.

@GoldenDoll then how do you find it NOT parallel?

For bodily purity and religious ritual you take your kid and get this thing done... in some cases in highly unhygienic ways that can cause long term damage, in other areas by “experts” who can do worse by slipping— or is your point legality since in the US it’s legal to do it to boys but not girls? I’d give you THAT half-point but we WERE discussing the ethics thereof not legality.

@ScientistV Because full FGM includes cutting off the clitoris, which is equivalent to cutting off the WHOLE PENIS. Or do they do this to boys as well for 'bodily purity or religious ritual'? Maybe that's one I don't know about. And you know exactly where you can shove your half point.

@GoldenDoll “the entire clitoris” is actually inaccurate, because medical doctors barely grasp the full shape of it. They cut off the equivalent of the HEAD of the penis, but an uneducated layperson like yourself even WHEN you know a person who had it done can’t figure it out. You’re a pretentious cunt, lady.

@ScientistV lol. I have had discussion with this member before. I did not use personal epithets against her but had her block me as I was obviously disturbing her cognitive dissonance. Please pm me if she does the same to you and blocks you. My suspicion is that it is a guilt driven thing that results in many arguing against known fact in order to justify their past behaviour. I have found it interesting that the Australian psychologists have not commented on my hypothesis that much violence against women and elder abuse results from the damage of being betrayed when most vulnerable by the supposed "saints" in our lives our mothers authorising or failing to protect against mutilation.

@GoldenDoll FGM is not equivalent to cutting off the entire penis; it is, however, quite close to circimcision. See, circumcision was pushed by conservative individuals to lower the rates of teen pregnancy and fornication in general. When you remove the foreskin you greatly reduce the sensitivity of the penis. These same people intended to have the same done to the female clitoris, but they pushed this during the women’s rights movement, and as women were already in a battle to get many other rights, they managed to avoid instituting what was referred to as “female circumcision”

Your facts are all wrong. FGM has been around for thousands of years. The world does not revolve around America. Go educate yourself.

@GoldenDoll with all due respect “Doll” your level of closed mindedness and ignorance doesn’t belong on this site.

Thank you for this comment

@Kassandra you’re very welcome. Thanks for the opportunity to rant! x

Oh, Kassandra, you are BAD!

seems you're catching on very well.

@Lukian @Gareth I don't mean to lower myself to that level, but I just want to make it clear if you're going to call out people, and you cannot just give your opinion once and stop forcing your opinions down others' throats - it will be noticed.

Kassandra, I wish you well on your adoption, all children deserve a loving home. When you open up a discussion on a hot topic like circumcision, that is what you should expect: discussion, even if it becomes heated.

Ha! So funny it is you are....!

@crazycurlz thank you for the well wishes. And I love heated discussions - that is not the issue here though. Most commenters were very pleasant in their conversation- even when they disagreed. No one else commented on MULTIPLE other comments trying to argue and shove their opinions down one another's throats. You do realize that NO ONE is going to listen to you or think you have any credibility when you do that right? It's just the wrong way to approach a debate. Look up some pointers, come back, and try again. You might have better luck and won't have to coerce people then.

@Kassandra I agree. Throwing out accusations of ignorance, bias and cloaked anti-semitism is not the way to go in this community. I don't need that in my daily feed and rather than get sucked into responding I will eventually block the person, as I've done in this case.

@Gareth great idea!

Several things come to mind.. if you are a believer then god made an error.. oops.. I forgot one thing.. Secondly there is no medical reason. I was born this way.. Glad Mom made the right decision.

My son is autistic, too (aspergers), uncircumcised, and has never had any problems.

I agree. There's a huge double standard. It's also very perverted. Culture has no business interfering with people's genitals.

Yep, my Nigerian ex-husband had it done to our son, and his first child, a girl, had it done too.

@Storybook The son thing was ok - I was still crazy in love and thought the husband knew best. My son is now a strapping 6ft3in and none the worst for it I suppose - too late to worry about it now! But the stepdaughter's mutliation broke my heart, and I could never get over it. She died when she was 9 of sickle cell.

@GoldenDoll so sorry to hear of what your family has gone through.

It's completely barbaric and perverted.

The foreskin is attached until a certain maturity and therefore should not be retracted as it causes damage.

@Storybook Thanks I needed someone to laugh at my peni$... wink.

Puppet show? That’s freaking hilarious

Unfortunately I did not see the previous post, but I'm glad more people are actually questioning it and spreading their personal experiences.

Thanks for your 3 cents. Lol

Is your puppet one eyed or what?
Someone not long ago photoshopped one of our wannabe prime ministers to replace his crown and forehead with a penis. It was very well done, you couldn't see the seam but unfortunately he has not taken the hint and quit politics.

@FrayedBear google puppetery of the peni$. They are an act. You can find them in YouTube.

Thanks for a considered response. Very refreshing after a lot of other angry & entitled replies.

@GoldenDoll , very nice and refreshing reply to you as well. Thanks to all who responded decently.

That was reasoning also. The first time I saw an uncircumcised penis I actually said. "Eww, what's wrong with it?"

Totally killed the mood.

@PhoebeCat and I feel just the opposite. As in all things, it's okay to have differences.

@crazycurlz you're free to prefer circumcised penises (EDIT: among your own sex partners).

That doesn't mean you should encourage other parents to cut any part of their boys' penises off, without their consent, absent medical necessity.

Awesome opinion on the reproductive rights. First time I heard this opinion and I see your point. Thank you.

On second thought, this is irreversible if we had circumcision done. So we are taking the right away from the baby boy who will grow up to be a Male. So while I agree that the two are very different and the care taker will ultimately have to make a decision one way or another. I guess my main concern are women who are not having to make that decision and decide to force their opinions on males.

@Kassandra, I'm all for bodily autonomy and I would say that it would be best to leave baby boys uncircumcised for that reason alone. If he wants to have it done later he can, if it is done now, his foreskin will never grow back.

@CoastRiderBill My ex-husband had our son circumcised - the baby got a shot of brandy, nothing else.

@CoastRiderBill And that was at the British High Commission Hospital in New Delhi - I remember they got an "expert" in to do it and the UK GP was all set up with his camera to take photos - bet my son would like to see those now!

@CoastRiderBill, @Storybook They said it was safer than an anaesthetic, which is probably true. He cried a lot.

@Storybook Yep.

I love Penn and Teller...great comedians. Please don't tell me they are your reference for all things medical

@crazycurlz And what are your terms of reference for all things medical? As you seem to have some of it wrong....

@crazycurlz No. My references for ALL things medical are doctors and other medical professionals. Just like the ones Penn & Teller referenced in this (and all of the other) episodes.

@GoldenDoll no I don't have it wrong. I think you may be motivated by prejudice. There is no comparison between circumcision and female genital mutilation. And there is no way to convince you of that.

@crazycurlz You have no idea what you're talking about. My stepdaughter was an FGM victim. My son was circumcised by his nigerian father. Please don't talk to me about prejudice. You have your wires crossed

Thank you. I will check it out.

@crazycurlz @Kassandra Both mutilations. Both unnecessary. Both performed without the adult consent of the mutilated. Both cripple for life. Both result in psychological damage. Both reveal the sickness of the guardians authorizing the action.

I hope to raise my children the same. Thank you for your insight.

Fitra ?!

@Punkrockgirl77 Agreed, but while the purpose, timing and intent may be different they are still the same thing, they are both still the arbitrary chopping up children's body parts just because it's tradition.

But god the creator of the entire universe and perfect in every way had a little problem when it came to foreskins. Just couldn't quite get that right... oh and he needs our cash for the church roof too.

@Nardi Well if it was good enough for Jesus ....Luckily you can still go and see Jesus's foreskin, in many different places - I think there are over 20 Holy Prepuces which are claimed to be "the one". Fascinating.

@Nardi what bad dope have you been smoking?

A problem can arise from infection with thrush. There is now a one tablet solution that frequently overcomes the problem of foreskin tightening and loss of elasticity resulting in it trying to garrotte the head.

@FrayedBear lol just quoting hitchens on the subject sorry.

@Nardi I reckon 3 hours in the sin bin for that one! ... "agnostics don't have sin bins." "Oh spewy, go and mumble in the corner then" .... curmudgeonly shiny goes off grumbling stage right.