Can Americans please comment on the geographical extent of oppression of atheists in your country? This came up in a debate with a fellow Brit who opined that "it's just a few Bible Belt areas and atheists don't stay there". Ignoring for a moment the implied suggestion of establishing an atheist homeland, I get the impression that the problem extends to huge swathes of America away from the more liberal coasts. Who is right?
Living in my part of the Bible Belt, I can tell you that if i ran for office as an openly liberal atheist i might as well not try. If I tried to focus on atheist activism in my area, I would absolutely expect death threats and intimidation tactics to be used to suppress me. Id have to go out of my way to draw the attention, but I’d still call it a degree of oppression. Not compared to women, LGBTQ and people of color but compared to an actually free society Id say youre correct. If I displayed rainbow or Clinton flags or anything else likely to piss off one of Mango Mussolini’s god fearing concentration camp apologists half as much as their confenderate second place participation trophies piss me off, Id expect some passive aggressive vandalism around my property at the very least.
Atheists are vilified and liberal ones especially are politically oppressed in most of the south east, midwest, and in basically every red state, rural, out of the way place i know of in some way, with very few exceptions. If you don't have a university, major metro area, legal herb or beach in your area and your population stagnates/never leaves the area, you stay pretty closed minded because not enough diversity is reaching you and youre not reaching out to enough of it either. Residents of my town sometimes surprise me with their kindness, but Im an aryan dreamboat so I wonder how life here is for those who can't pass as a redneck. Everyone tries to mind their business and i return the favor, but i know my life would be much harder if i were more vocal and politically active as an atheist.
Here's my 2 cents. I think there are far more atheists (in the way most if us here are atheists, not like Ricky Garvais' description, "We're all atheists, I just believe in one less god than you." ), but they're afraid to verbalize that, or "come out of the closet."
I've lived in Germany and have friends in the UK, so I realize it's more common to be atheist in Europe and way easier to be open about it. Here, you can lose family and friends.
My best friend has been told - more than once - to stop associating with me. Christians don't have as much faith in their dogma as they let on, because they're terrified that friendship with an atheist will cut into their bottom line, so they push for shunning and ostracizing.
So, anyway, it's not, strictly speaking, oppression, but it is really fucking lonely.
Yup, there are more of us than we realize and it's like coming out of the closet. I've done it to some extent but know that i have friends who have cooled to me. O well.
@starwatcher-al Don't worry mate. Looks like they were only associates. Friends don't give a flying duck about personal beliefs or politics. You can have robust discussions and still come out of the bar and share a bag of chips or pizza or something. We've got your back on here, so nil desperandum!
Your counterpart has NO idea what they're talking about.
The "bible-belt" covers A LOT of ground, and there are atheists throughout.
I'm an open atheist in southwest Georgia. I'm not alone, but there aren't many.
Especially not many who feel safe to be "out". There are many who feel their jobs, homes, and families would be at risk were they to be open about their non-belief.
While some may believe there is not "active oppression" of atheists in this country, there are still seven states that prohibit any person who denies the existence of a "supreme being" from holding any public office.
Btw, the idea of an "atheist homeland" is patently absurd.
"Atheist homeland" was my tongue in cheek response to her suggestion that atheists move out of the Bible Belt. She must have been having a brain freeze when she typed that. She's brighter than that.
yeah i believe tennessee is one of those states where it would be illegal for me to run for office, so upgrade that “might as well not try in my original answer to “definitely can't try”.
@Wurlitzer You are correct. North Carolina, Arkansas, Maryland, Mississippi, South Carolina, Tennessee, and Texas.
@TheMiddleWay While the US Constitution supersedes state constitutions, the people who live in those states still have a problem with anyone who doesn't believe in their god.
I won't call it oppression but the area in Pennsylvania where I live is full of what I call fake Christians. They are very vocal about everything that doesn't fit into their strange little mindset. But I have a group of freethinkers that I spend time with and I do my best to ignore the fake Christians and their religion/politics. Also I don't spout my beliefs or should I say disbelief but that is mainly because I'm a private person and it would never occur to me to walk up to a stranger and say," Hi I'm Christina, I've been divorced twice and I'm Agnostic with Buddhist leanings.
Honestly, it kind of varies from place to place, more so than just generalized bible belt areas. Some communities are really tolerant and accepting of all faiths (or lack thereof), some are very much not. A lot of it follows how liberal or conservative an area is, with conservative areas, predictably, being less tolerant and accepting.
Up in northern Michigan, I had a boss tell me that I didn't need to take holidays if I didn't have a religion. I also had a lot of combative people get aggressive about my lack of religion when I came up, though thankfully, no others were in a position of authority.
I haven't been living in North Carolina very long, only a few years, so I haven't had too much happened here yet. But I see the potential for atheist discrimination even more here than back home. A lot of the area is very Fundamentalist. I get a bit disconcerted when I have to wonder, if my ex and I ever get into a real Court battle over custody, will the officials discriminate against me, overtly or otherwise? Would I even know if they did?
I lived in Asheville North Carolina it's a little more liberal there than some parts of North Carolina. I was there from 89 to 2001 it was a pretty new agey lots of workshops and spiritual Seekers. But also the downtown area had a place where a lot of goth people hung out and there was also granola campout type people. I had a good time there
@Charlietuna7 The cities do seem a lot more open-minded. My area is not as much so, sadly.
It's pretty pervasive across all of America that atheists have to live in the shadows until very, very recently. Until just this last year it was difficult to be in a position where you interface with the public and acknowledge your were an atheist. I teach in a high school, and I do not think that my colleagues or the parents would generally accept or understand being atheist.
I used to live in Pennsylvania and had suffered job discrimination there from stating liberal views and atheist views. It’s a little better in the cities but I’d say it’s rampant everywhere in America to some extent. I don’t share the beliefs (lack of beliefs) unless I really know someone.
My husband, myself, and my mother in law are athiests who live in the Bible belt.
If we just run, they win.
Im in michigan, No oppression to speak of, most people don't really care, and the fun thing about atheism, is if you don't mention it, pretty much no one asks. On the rare occasion that it becomes relevant most people respond with 'oh, ok' and drop the subject.
Clarkston, MI is not accepting at all. When my family moved here, my child was instantly ostracized because he admitted to not attending church. The ridicule that followed is what prompted us to start discussing religious beliefs and ‘officially’ becoming atheists.
@Untamedshrew wow, I grew up in waterford, never had that experience. sorry friend, that is both terrible and shocking
@dellik Clarkston is a mix of blue collar country conservatives and McMansion conservatives. I wish I had checked the demographics before moving here.
There is no atheist homeland. A homeland means a place it gave birth! It is given birth in your mind when you decide truth is better then myths.
I live in rural Indiana where most people around are Christians. To be honest it's really not that big of a problem here. Most are just Christians in name only. Basically people keep to themselves. Its more of an issue in Jr/Sr high school where everyone was a bible thumper but when you move on and meet your real friends the bible thumpers don't matter.
There’s no such thing. We maybe unwelcome, but we’re not actively oppressed.
Can you imagine an openly atheist President?
The crazy thing about systemic oppression is that it doesn't require active participation, or even to look like oppression. Don't get me wrong, atheists don't get anywhere near as much shit as other minority groups, but we're not immune.
@DonThiebaut
It’s not like you’re barred from voting because your an atheist, say, like they were in Britain in the 19th century.
@Gatovicolo As @KKGator pointed out above, there are still 7 states that have, on the law, bans on atheists from holding office. And most oppression isn't so obvious.
@DonThiebaut
There are seven states with a ban in their constitutions, but according to judicial review they are null and void.
@Gatovicolo if you really believe that a law being unconstitutional means it's unenforceable, you haven't been paying attention to how the judicial system actually works. A law being unconstitutional only means that a higher court can strike it down. It still has to go to court first, and I don't know about you, but I can't afford that. Which effectively bars me from holding any state office here in North Carolina, where I live.
@Gatovicolo Living in my part of the Bible Belt, I can tell you that if i ran for office as an open atheist i might as well not try. If I tried to focus on atheist activism in my area, I would absolutely expect death threats and intimidation tactics to be used to suppress me. Id have to go out of my way to draw the attention, but I’d still call it a degree of oppression. Not compared to women, LGBTQ and people of color but compared to an actually free society the OP is correct. If I displayed ?️? or Clinton flags or anything else likely to piss off one of Mango Mussolini’s god fearing concentration camp apologists half as much as their confenderate second place participation trophies piss me off, Id expect some passive aggressive vandalism around my property at the very least.
Atheists are vilified and are politically oppressed in most of the south east, midwest, and in basically every red state/rural, out of the way place i know of in some way, with very few exceptions.. If you don't have a university, major metro area, legal herb or beach in your area and your population stagnates/never leaves the area, you stay pretty closed minded. Residents of my town sometimes surprise me with their kindness, but Im an aryan dreamboat so I wonder how life here is for those who can't pass as a redneck. Everyone tries to mind their business and i return the favor, but i know my life would be much harder if i were more vocal and politically active as an atheist.
@DonThiebaut
I didn’t say it wasn’t possible to enforce it, but even though he worst attorney could get past the ruling. No one tries to enforce it because they know it unenforceable.
@Wurlitzer
That doesn’t mean you’re banned from running. It just means that you’d probably not win. The religious folk are part of the voting public too.
@Gatovicolo I'll agree that if someone tried to enforce it, and if they were unsuccessful at sweeping it under the rug, it would be a slam-dunk. That doesn't mean that the mere presence of the law doesn't negatively affect atheists. Even the tiny chance of being summarily refused office, even if I could get it overturned, makes the potential decision to run a much worse proposition from a risk/benefit analysis. (Which, as an aside, goes to show how systemic oppression of the poor is rampant in the U.S.)
And would you say that a black person being refused votes simply for being black wouldn't qualify as racism? It may not be systemic at that point, but it certainly would still exist, and in an active way.
@DonThiebaut I disagree. It should be challenged though. Which it is.
@Gatovicolo If it's not oppressive, why should it be challenged?
@DonThiebaut
Because it’s not justified.
@Pete66
Imagine? Sure. I have a pretty good imagination.
@Gatovicolo it isn't the 19th century though! Can you imagine an openly atheist President of the USA?
@Gatovicolo sure I can imagine dragons and unicorns but how likely do you think it is at the moment?
@Gatovicolo Taking the effort to oppose something that doesn't harm anyone is not justified. But more importantly, why do you insist that atheist oppression doesn't exist? Even if the specific case of that particular law doesn't meet your standards, you must see how religious exclusions, tax exemptions, and preferential treatment are real.
@DonThiebaut
Because it doesn’t.
@Gatovicolo So there are no religious tax exemptions or special rulings?
@DonThiebaut
Religious tax exemptions don’t qualify as oppression.
As for soecial rulings, you’d have to be more specific.
@Gatovicolo For instance, the requirements to establish a daycare center are higher for non-religious groups. Religious tax exemptions qualify as oppression: religion is not a valid reason to pay less in taxes, and the nonreligious have to pay more to cover the difference. That effectively penalizes us for being nonreligious, or at least not a religious institution. And oppression doesn't have to be strictly in writing. Any time an authority figure makes a judgment call related to an atheist, the potential exists for them to act on prejudice against that person.
@DonThiebaut
Tax advantages for religions are an issue, but they don’t qualify as oppression. They qualify as unequal treatment. That’s an issue, but not oppression.
It does not penalize you it benefits them. There’s s distinct difference. A benefit for one is not a penalty for someone else.
@Pete66
Dragons and unicorns are real objects that’s couldn’t possibly exist. Atheistic presidents are. Do I think it’s likely, no. Not with a religious majority. But that hardly makes it oppressive.
@Gatovicolo A benefit for one is a penalty for someone else when the someone else is literally required to pay for the benefit. If the benefit/penalty was over something suitable, it may be justified, but religion is not a suitable reason.
Midwest here, twixt Milwaukee and Chicago, and can confirm the anti-Atheist sentiment is alive and well. Depending on personal situations, making your beliefs known can impact your job as well as your social life. I know people who are in the closet because they fear the repercussions of others knowing they are Atheist. I don't make a point of telling everyone of my beliefs, it usually is not relevant, but usually don't make a point of hiding either. That said, I tried to be quiet about it on my job when I was still working.
It's all over.... To the point where people in the US are still afraid of electing openly atheist city officials. They think being religious guarantees them that their representatives will have integrity, despite all the negative news about their deeds on TV.
Not really. You’re not paying for it. The public is. You know the everybody including you.
I've worn my Atheist T-Shirts into Walmarts, convenience stores, farmer's markets, and antique shops from Tulsa to OKC, OKC to Dallas, and from Dallas to Houston. While I've had a few "looks", no one has ever said a thing to me. I live in a small town near the TX/OK line....and there are Wiccan groups here....other pagan groups....Buddhists....and lots and lots of people who will freely tell you that they "don't go to church" except for weddings and funerals. I really don't think it's a problem anymore, in general.
It does seem to be getting better overall. I think higher connectivity is helping people be open and come to except a lot of things, thankfully. But there are definitely hold-outs against change
One must remember regardless of blue States and red States there are conservatives and liberals everywhere.. and I grew up in the Mississippi Delta my aunt helped the Freedom Fighters get to Washington DC. like some of the things that happened in Alabama I certainly consider it one of the worst areas for what I might call religious ignorance. I also see what's happening now Through The Eyes Of Evolution we only a geological blink away from being hunter-gatherers so much has happened in the last hundred years and like I said and geologic time that's not even a blink a nanosecond split a gazillion times. but yes it's true that in America for example California is very different from North Carolina like New York is different from Texas. its history
By the “Bible Belt” most people are referring to the South I think, and that description is grossly inaccurate. Religious fundamentalism is rampant all around the country.
If you click on the above link you'll see a rating of various religious practices and values in the South. Under each table is a tab to click on and see how the various regions compare in religious practices. If you look you'll see that while the South is indeed more religious, the differences among the regions are not very great. There are certainly not enough differences to warrant labeling the South as the "bible belt". The South is a huge and diverse region, the most populous region, with every conceivable religion and religious opinion.
So far as oppression, I live in a very rural area, and I’ve never heard of anyone being oppressed because of their religious opinions. There are great numbers of people around me who, while not describing themselves as atheists, are definitely non-believers, and they are in no way oppressed. Of course that is just my observation. Others might see it differently.
What about in your country? Do people commonly say that they are atheists? Are there cultic fundamentalist groups? According to something I read, Paul Dirac was denied a professorship at one of the English universities because of his atheism. Is that common? He had no trouble getting on at FSU, right in the heart of Cracker country, and he is buried there, in Tallahassee.
Yes, we have fundie groups and cults but they are not in positions of power (except perhaps in Northern Ireland). They are mostly ridiculed, certainly not respected. Britain is a very secular society. Relatively few people declare themselves atheist, probably because they don't have to - no-one cares.
I find it richly ironic that our country has an established church ie the head of state is also head of the church and yet society is secular whereas the U.S. constitutionally separates church and state and yet it is such a rampantly religious country.
Unfortunately the "South" as its commonly called has garnered a reputation for intolerance. Regardless as to whether is true or not, as demonstrated by the PEW resesrch (and I do not doubt the veracity of their resesrch on this topic), you still suffer from a negative optics problem. The corresponding "Bible Belt" designator for the South, likewise, true or not, is an unfortunate association that persists for most of the nation.
People assume I am catholic because of my Irish roots. Fortunately my father was excommunicated from the church years before I was born. People are shocked and usually argue that "I must be a believer, how dare I .....". I don't care and they can pretend they are really christians
I live in metro Detroit. Atheists are seen as unethical even by my ‘open minded’ contemporaries. Though I’m accepted, there is an initial assumption that I’m a hedonistic, careless, and generally wild animal.