Don't talk about it, DO IT.

@jlynn37 I'm hoping the thought will kick the logical thought into gear. I would rather people make the choice by careful thought and realization than by having to be forced. Force creates resentments as you can see from women's reactions by just the idea of forcing the issue.

My answer to those Neanderthals, @Lucyloohoo is "why can't men just keep their dicks under control?"

I totally agree. Male circumcision should be banned. Men's genitals are no one else's business. It is up to the boy or man if they want to get circumcised. It's no one else's decision.

Funnily enough, it was my kids father I had to fight tooth and nail to keep that from being done to my sons.

Yes, you are correct, but government and religious intrusion makes that impossible for most.

@jlynn37 yeah God ordained that don't you know

@McVinegar next question

@oldFloyd ain't it the truth, AIN'T IT THE TRUTH.

Yes. Men can't help being born men and women can't help being born women.

But men do have a choice when it comes to judging women for something they can't help.

@Ellatynemouth absolutely.

@Marcie1974 I have a similar story but with a sad twist.

Same here. My recovery from my tubal was agonizing. He would have had two weeks of discomfort

Yes. And women didn't choose to be born women.

The point is that you really don't get to opine on these matters as you cannot know anything about them. You don't get to judge or condemn women for what they do with their bodies from the safe vantage point of knowing you'll never have to face any of those challenges.

You're comparing a potential risk to my life with your financial obligation. It's not the same.

How many kids have you been trapped into paying for so far if I may ask? So since money is obviously the most imporant part of the equation, you must be super staunchly in favor of contraception access to the poor and women’s rights to an abortion right? Its super cost effective compared to the situation you fear most. Something tells me you shouldnt worry too much though.

That's a Red Herring fallacy. It's morally wrong for me to have ANY financial obligation unless I get a say in things. You want 100% of the power without accepting 100% of the responsibility. Power without responsibility is tyranny.

@ldheinz The funny thing about whiny snowflake MRAs who think women have it so easy is, I can't tell whether youd rather restrict access to contraception and birth control to keep women poor, or whether youd rather force them to keep yourself rich. Get back to us when you decide which one you like; can't have it both ways.

@ldheinz I am assuming you are voluntarily having sex, it is YOUR choice to use birth control.

@ldheinz Men can always use condoms consistently if they do not want their partner/s to get pregnant. They might not be 100% effective but it does help.

@Kadygee and @AmelieMatisse, it's not about birth control. Both sexes can use birth control. It's about what happens if birth control fails, You don't think that women should be forced to become parents? Well, men are routinely forced to become parents, legally, with all the requirements of that, financial, emotional, and much more. Why do only women have rights?

@ldheinz when I read the original post what I'm reading seems to be about abortion rights. Maybe I'm reading it wrong.

@AmelieMatisse, the way I read it, she insists that men should have no say about reproduction and lists reasons. According to her, men don't even get to comment about it.
I'm OK with a woman having control of her body, just not my wallet or my life. Again, if it's her power then it's her responsibility.

Yes, the female reproductive system is a mess. It's a good argument against intelligent design, as no sane person would design it like that. If god created that, then he's either stupid or evil. Either way, he shouldn't be worshipped.

@ldheinz it is interesting to me that men are reading this in a very different way than women are. I believe the bold print is the statement and what follows are subsets of the short statement. I honestly did not pick up the feeling that the writer of this expected a man to pay her off for the next 20 years if she got pregnant, quite the opposite.

@AmelieMatisse, is that because women tend to agree with her that men exist to give women things?

@ldheinz wow I need to be done commenting now cause that one was just a little too off the wall.

A few weeks ago, someone on this site published a post. Something to the effect of... "when is it OK to use the 'N' word for black people?'.

I just lost it.

This was a white guy, completely unaware of his white privilege. All the commentators were white too.

We can try to imagine what it's like living in someone else's shoes, but we can never know.

@Ellatynemouth Empathy is apparently in short supply these days. My views can be a bit staunch sometimes but logically based.

@moonmaid Yes, it is sarcasm. This is Agnostic.com. There is no garden and there is no Eve.

@moonmaid Oh, let's not forget Pandora.

@Silver1wun Pandora opened up a can of worms for everyone, but Eve is responsible for women's troubles, so the story goes..

@jlynn37 and @moonmaid I still love the story of Lilith who is said to be before Eve. Even if it is myth she was one kick ass of a woman and I think that is why her myth had to be destroyed by Christianity to a more wimpy Eve

@jlynn37 It's all about womem getting the blame...

@Silver1wun It is ALWAYS about putting the blame on the "other". As long as you have the "other" to blame there is nothing you need or have to do yourself.

@moonmaid Do you know that there is an astrological symbol for Black Moon Lilith which is a mathematical point from the asteroid Lilith and it speaks to your hidden sexual desires

@AmelieMatisse Another skeptic who believes in Astrology. Just goes to show that Agnostics and Atheists can believe in anything other than the existence of god(s).

@moonmaid You pretty much have to google black moon Lilith for astrology charts. It will ask all the pertinent birth questions and then give you the placement and then you can look it up.

@moonmaid, @jlynn37 I guess for me it is more that astrology is interesting and doesn't have a dogma such as I must do this and worship that, so I don't have a problem with finding it an interesting subject. I actually have been a Lilith fan for a longer time than I've known astrology.

@AmelieMatisse Do what you enjoy doing, what gives you pleasure and meaning, just strive to do or cause no harm.

@jlynn37 Yes, I do agree

@sweetcharlotte, both genders rape. But when your gender rapes it is legally required that the rape is repeated, thousands of times, for decades, without penalties. Don't you feel bad about THAT?

I didn't read any bitching from @Ellatynemouth, Ella's post. What i read was a complaint about men who "feel entitled to comment on women's fertility issues and abortion." She was in my opinion accurately describing a type of man, relatively common in my experience, who judges women, tries to control women, and who still perceive women as being less than men. Ella didn't say all men, but i know for a fact that everything she described exists as part of many women's reality.

@josephr, the original post does make valid points, but she says that men should not be allowed to even express an opinion, and that is wrong. If women want sole control, they should accept full responsibility. If it's wrong to force a woman to become a parent then it is wrong to force a man to become a parent as well.

@ldheinz We obviously interpret her words differently, as we also differ about the gender responsibilities relevant to birthing, parenthood, and parenting. And that's the way it is. Cheers.

@josephr, I'm just asking for equal treatment under the law. so yes, our opinions differ.

As long as you don't criticise women for their biological functions which they can't help, you should be fine.

Like wise. Women can't lecture men either.

@Ellatynemouth I support a woman’s right to choose, hoping that the father would have at least some input. My support is based on libertarian principles of individual freedom.

Also, I think that human bodies are mere robots, worth but little individually. Like acorns under an oak tree, they are a dime a dozen. (Do Brits use that expression?)

@WilliamFleming We understand it William.

Apples and oranges.

@KKGator Off topic I know, but somewhat related. I’m curious if the typical man misunderstands the basics of femininity.

@WilliamFleming Honestly, there are times when I wonder if men or women EVER truly understand one another, or actually even care to.
But that's just me, and I woke up today feeling rather contrarian. So...

@PhitDoctor50 True dat.

@KKGator Hahaaa I was going to say apples and AR15's

@Belrieve Sounds reasonable. I’ve read some women novelists who I thought were right on.

Reminds me of once reading a novel by a Canadian man. Something was wrong with the male characters—I didn’t know what, but it was eerie and disturbing. Later I learned that the guy had transitioned from a woman. Hmm...