This poll is inspired by this article:
The venomous ideology of religious intolerance
[economist.com]
I hear alot of atheists and anti-theists state the the world would be a better place without religion or that the religious are responsible for many of the ills of the world.
Thus, is being an atheists or anti-theists the same as being religious intolerant?
I mean the former is worn as a badge of pride while the latter is generally frowned upon.
What do you think? Please expand on your poll answer below.
Weired article. Does he think secularist liberals have some sort of power? Maybe they do in England.
While I have no use for religion and think the world would be better without it, I think others can believe what they want as long as it does not interfere with my life.
It is not the same. Just because I am not a theist, and I believe that the world would be a better place without religion does not mean that I am actively working to abolish religion, or that I would be interested in restricting the freedom of others to think and believe as they wish.
@TheMiddleWay: Just because I think the world would be a better place without religion does NOT mean that I would eliminate religion if I suddenly became powerful enough to do so. My understanding that people are entitled to the freedom to think, feel, and worship as they will takes precedence over my opinion that the world would be a better place without religion.
@TheMiddleWay I'm not tolerant of religion and I certainly would eliminate if it were in my power to do so. Ignorance is not bliss. It is voluntarily relinquishing your autonomy to others. There needs to be laws to stop people being exploited by cults or occults or any other superstition.
People can believe whatever fairy tales they want.
I admit to being intolerant towards religion, though tolerant of people's right to believe in any nonsense they wish, providing it doesn't become hateful or legally actionable. I am also intolerant of -
And I could go on.
Point? Intolerance is not by definition a bad thing. It depends what you are intolerant of.
I am happy to be a person intolerant of religion in this world. I seek a world free of religion.
In the past, and still now, people were intolerant of slavery. They sought a world free of it.
@TheMiddleWay by living in hope that current religions will go the way of ancient religions that once millions believed in, fought for and died believing, following their phoney celebrants, and that is to die the death of irrelevance. Given human weakness for the simplistic answers of religion, and the phoney authority on which it is based, it is, I admit, idealistic to hope for a religion free world. But the trend line of history is clear, the right and wrong side of history all too apparent, as is which side of that history religion belongs.
People can believe whatever the hell they want to, I just don't want them to try to sell it to me or make me follow their rules.
Pretty much how I feel. Believe what you want but keep your religious laws off my body and myself, and stop calling and knocking on the door. Not interested. And don't use government to impose religious law or oppress women.
Im an antitheist who does not consider himself religiously intolerant. I might make fun of certain religious practices here, or amongst friends in private, but Im never going to ridicule or obstruct someone openly or treat them any worse for what they believe as long as it’s not directly encroaching on and hurting others. Im intolerant of religion being legislated upon the public 100%, intolerant of misinformation being spread and will speak up to correct it, and I am intolerant of brainwashing children in principle as I was. It was a serious form of child abuse. I am not intolerant of anyones individual religious practice or freedoms though, and I wouldnt interfere with them even in the latter case of teaching hatefully loathesome bullshit to their children, unless it was clearly crossing a legal line even amongst my local Christians and deserved to be reported to police. I might have a few arguably intolerant ideals toward stupidity, but by the token mordant discussed, its a justifiable distaste like that people have for pederasts, and I reserve it for those whose religious practice is openly poisoning their family or community in similar ways. I have no contempt for religion on its own merits, just when it crosses into undeniably disadvantageous practice.
Meh, it's a spectrum. I dislike it when atheist friends are antagonistic towards religious people who aren't really interfering with me. I know several atheists who like to mock, belittle or otherwise publicly antagonize people who just say a quiet prayer at a group dinner.
My FB atheist group got onto me last month for criticizing one of my friends who always belittles religious people we have dinner with.
I get it, I was a very angry anti-theist for about a year after I left religion. I wasn't even really atheist bc I hated the god I didn't believe in, I ripped into total strangers at a coffee shop holding a bible study once. Thankfully I matured.
My friend who antagonizes theists is much older, maybe I'd be more aggressive if I'd been atheist when random people would jump on me for not praying or for having a drink...hard to know.
I like Paul Kurtz's writings where religion is fine and even public religion is ok. Even having religious motivation for public policies is ok if there are other strong secular arguments that justify your religiously motivated policies but any public policy that only has religious justification shouldn't be tolerated.
@TheMiddleWay nothing justifies blind hatred
It doesn't matter if the person doing the hating is Black, White, religious, atheist...
Understanding WHY people grow to hate others has good utility especially if we can oppose the idiocy through understanding and hopefully good education
There's nothing generically harmful or rude or bad about being "intolerant". The question is, are you intolerant of something that the person cannot change about themselves, or are you intolerant of something they CAN and SHOULD change?
I don't think the vast majority of us are intolerant of someone choosing to belong to a belief system we don't subscribe to. Even though at least in theory they COULD change their beliefs, and arguably should, it's just not a battle most of us would pick, in and of itself.
Here's what we ARE intolerant of, though. We're intolerant of our lack of belief and our motivations being mischaracterized, if not outright gaslighted. We're intolerant of unasked-for advice and proselytization. We're intolerant of attempts at authoritarian control by people in a group, of people outside that group.
How many of us here have ever had an issue with liberal Christians? The kind of person whose main church-to-community interactions involve activities like soup kitchens? I'm willing to bet, little to none. It is the authoritarian, hectoring, theocracy-craving asshats that we are "intolerant" of ... the same way that most people are rightly intolerant of racists or pederasts.
@TheMiddleWay I think the chain of reasoning matters here. It is merely an opinion to regard religious faith as a sub-optimal basis for things, and to feel that strongly enough to argue against it. It also is fine to be agitating as an activist against these things provided you connect it to how it brings about injustice and human suffering. The basis must always be poor outcomes, not ideological incorrectness.
It only becomes intolerance when your rationale for rejecting what you disbelieve in is confined strictly to dehumanization, ridicule and ad hominem attacks. In my experience, New Atheism intends to ridicule things that are ridiculous, and to show them up as such. This is going to be very threatening (even, perceptually, existentially threatening) to those theists to whom it rightly applies, but I would not conflate this with dehumanization. I think there's a danger of it being both misunderstood and misused as dehumanization, though. That is why I am not a strict New Atheist. Sometimes you do catch more flies with honey than with vinegar. Sometimes dousing some asshat with a full gallon of vinegar wakes them up. It is situational. There's value in recognizing that historically unbelievers have had to pussy-foot around the tender sensibilities of theists who have enjoyed totally unearned deference in the marketplace of ideas -- and thus to level out that playing field and destroying such authoritarian notions as blasphemy laws, etc. But there's also value in speaking softly and carrying a big stick.
BTW, FWIW ... I do not believe the US government was set up with Christian beliefs or any other theistic beliefs as an explicit foundation. The founding fathers were, for the most part, Deist at best. Modern fundamentalists push the total fiction of this being a "Christian" nation as if it were founded by fundamentalists who were not a significant social influence until, at best, the 1830s. And the religious beliefs of most of the founders, such as they were, are actually abhorrent to modern fundamentalism. It's like how they'll cite that a third of the world is Christian (by a very weak, self-labeling and largely cultural standard) when it suits them, and then reject most of those same people as apostates when that suits them.
The reality is that the US is and has always been a secular democratic republic founded at a time of widespread religious piety and so was propounded in such a way that the pious could see in its founding principles what they wished to see. As they do to this very day.
The Bible certainly happens to agree with and justify (in however misguided a fashion) many of our founding principles, seen from a certain perspective (in point of fact the Bible is ignorant of anything but the governmental systems of its day, i.e., absolute monarchy, institutional slavery, etc). You can, with some mental gymnastics, cite the Bible as a justification for many aspects of the US governmental system, but the truth is that if the US were literally based on the Bible we'd have a king and we would have affirmed slavery as a matter of course (which in fact we did, at first).
Which brings up the point that it's not a bad thing that this country has in ways become less a Christian nation. Christianity has in fact broken with itself and the cherished interpretations of Christianity by many of its followers, in that portions of Christianity have long promoted social justice issues, compassion for the disadvantaged, and agitating for progressive change. We must not confuse this happy development for regressive Christianity being able to lay any legitimate claim to the heritage of the higher ideals of its own founders.
@TheMiddleWay I have no malfunction with anything you're saying here.
"New Atheism" is something of an ad hoc movement with no central tenets or leadership and some people claim to be new atheists just by virtue of being in-your-face anti-theists, so it's hard to say whether new atheism supports the notion that religion is mental illness in some sense. Personally I do not subscribe to that and I am not sure that any prominent new atheist does, as anything more than a rhetorical flourish anyway. I think it's a dangerous notion even as a rhetorical flourish, so it's not one that I would advocate.
Religion is highly compartmentalized and people don't apply religious faith to all aspects of life. As someone said ... might have been Carlin ... "tell people that there's an invisible man in the sky and they believe it; but tell them the paint is wet and they have to touch it to be sure". We all have irrational beliefs. Many unbelievers on this very site clearly harbor irrational beliefs in things like ESP, homeopathy, new age / new thought types of notions -- and they even harbor less than historically accurate notions of what agnosticism or atheism are.
The human mind is a leaking sieve, truth be told. It's highly imprecise. Having the humility to understand the limits of your own thought processes is not compatible with calling religion mental illness, in my view. By that standard, we're all mentally ill. Just because we can see the wrong-headedness in religion, doesn't mean we're right-headed in all things.
As a comparison, I think that Islam has many things in the Koran that are in opposition to ethical behavior. The same can be said for Christians and the Bible. Do I believe than Muslims or Christians can't be ethical and moral? No. I still think there are many things in those books that are bad. Do I think that a world without those teachings be a more moral place to live? Yes. I believe I can argue against ideas without being intolerant toward someone's else's beliefs. We both have the right to believe what we want and we both should have the right to argue against the other's beliefs.
I'm an atheist. That doesn't make me (or anyone else) a religious-intolerant.
However, I am also an anti-theist, and I AM very intolerant of all religion.
I'm really fine with not being tolerant of religion.
It's dangerous, and far too many of it's adherents want nothing more than to
force their particular brand of delusions on everyone else.
I see absolutely no justification for being tolerant of that.
There is no such thing as "live and let live". They've made that impossible.
Preaching "live and let live" just gives the believers more opportunities to
influence public policy.
I think tolerance is a great ideal. It's a lovely sentiment.
Unfortunately, if you attempt to be tolerant of some people, they will take advantage of it.
Being an anti-theist is the ONLY thing that makes any sense to me,
as an atheist.
I'm not sure I can answer this. I couldn't get the link to load, but mainly because it seems to me everything depends on your own interpretation of the labels, and also who you're labelling. I personally consider the difference to be better classed as atheist/itheist, following the same logic as the difference between amoral/immoral (oh how the hate preachers would love my choice of comparison!). I consider myself as itheist on the grounds that I view religion as intellectually obstructive, but in most company I'll identify as atheist to avoid the association with intolerance, which isn't my cup of tea. Anti-theist definitely brings to my mind the idea of intolerance, but thats just the way I see the word. In this instance maybe we need more classifications to clarify, though it's confusing enough to make a vicar curse as is!
Atheism is just a philosophical position regarding the existence of god. That has nothing to do with intolerance of any kind. Anti-theism is a bit more complex, but still, having the opinion that religion is harmful can be based in intolerance but it doesn't have to be. You can respectfully argue that religion is evil while still being tolerant of someones views. I think the question is a bit vague, because being intolerant against religions can mean a lot of things and there are some people who would argue that not wanting a religious autocracy is a sign of intolerance against religion. So my answers: No and no, not necessarily.
By the way you are using the words you are basically agreeing with me. You already make the distinction between an atheist or anti-theist who takes action and someone who doesn't. If you want to explorethe topic further, here is one definition of tolerance (from the oxfort dictionary): "The ability or willingness to tolerate the existence of opinions or behaviour that one dislikes or disagrees with."
The term 'intolerant atheist', for example, is a bit vague.People would disagree what makes someone intolerant. To be more precise you might want to try to find out what the person is intolerant about. (1) Is it some religious practise that interfers with somebodys life in a negative way? I wouldn't call that intolerant against religion but intolerant against said practice, but you might have a different opinion. The next step would be (2) someone who is intolerant about a religious practise that doesn't affect anybody else, like praying quietly in your home. If that someone can't tolerate that he/she would in my view have to be an intolerant person in general, which would make that person an intolerant atheist. But, as others have already pointed out, it is a whole different question if being intolerant is good or bad in different situations. There might be an agrument that justifies being intolerant against praying quietly I though haven't heard about such an agrument yet.
I think the question that would be more interesting and also easier to verify is "Does someone calling himself anti-theist correlate with being intolerant?" I'm not aware of any studies about this, but there could be a connection and it would be interesting to find out the connection between calling yourself religious and intolerance to compare those things.
I consider myself an atheist, definitely and an anti-theist depending on the definition. In your example I would say that you would have to clarify how the church is funded. If it was privately funded I wouldn't have anything against it and I probably would say so even in private. Even though I might call myself an anti-theist you might say that disqualifies me from being one, that's one of the semantic grey areas here.
On the other hand, if it was publicly funded, I would definitely be against it, in private or in public, because I see no reason why all of society should (even if only in part) for a recruitement center for supersticious believes. In that sense I think most people would not hesitate to call me anti-theist.
So in summary, I might not be considered an anti-theist (by some people) because I tolerate everyones private opinion, but I'm definitely an anti-theist when those opinion affect my life or the live of othes.
You can be against something without being mean about it. I'm against all kinds of things, but I have no desire to be mean to anyone, for any reason.
If you are "anti-theism" you are intolerant of religion, that's why the term is "anti" which means opposed to or against. If you're an atheist you simply don't believe in a deity.
Being opposed to or against is not the same as being intolerant.
I might be opposed to my neighbor painting his house brown, but that doesn't mean I wouldn't tolerate it, if he did.
@Dietl I can see your point but I'd argue that they are used interchangably quite often in society. Take anti-smoking for instance.
You can't be tolerant about something you are for or indifferent about. So you can only be tolerant about something you are against. Having those things mean the same thing leads to a contradiction of sorts. You can only be intolerant about something you are against, but you can only be tolerant about something you are against.