Regardless of Quantum theory, or even Sam Harris, who I respect & whose writings I like, we, being the type of creatures we are, have to treat the 'world' & what's in it as "material" & behave, as much as we're able, as if we have "Free Will"! I don't see any other practical way of interacting with our world & the people in it, otherwise!

What evidence supports the notion of free will?

@phxbillcee I agree. It is only in moments of contemplation that we are afforded the luxury of that impractical other stuff.

I just read about Sam Harris on Wikipedia and I liked what I read very much. I plan to download some of his podcasts.

@WilliamFleming We have a Sam Harris 'group' on this site, also.

@WilliamFleming, @RandyTerry There is evidence both for & against 'free will', my point is that being the type of creatures in the type of societies & reality we exist in have little choice but to behave as if we do have 'free will'. How else can we possibly behave? We can recognize that there are forces that act upon us, but what does one do? Surrender to the idea that we're powerless & under the control of these forces & thus forfeit any control of our lives? We know that most matter,, even 'solids', are more "empty" than not, we still must trust that a chair will support us or that we are unable to walk thru walls. The same applies to 'free will'. We, collectively, while recognizing that there may be "extenuating circumstances" at times, must still be responsible for our actions & hold others responsible for theirs! I see no other way to interact & exist. Pragmatism has to come to the fore in this.

@phxbillcee Thx, I’ll check it out.

@phxbillcee, @RandyTerry I just chose to reply to you. I am exercising free will.

@WilliamFleming Did you make the choice to reply independent of your brain?

@RandyTerry That's not really the way to phrase it, whether pro or anti 'free will'. In either case the decision would come from one's brain. From where else could it come?

@RandyTerry The brain was involved, but the idea to respond did not originate with the brain IMO. I lean toward thinking that our bodies are unaware robots with no consciousness. Consciousness is a higher level thing, primary in nature. It’s not MY consciousness and YOUR consciousness. It’s just consciousness period, The sense of self as a separate body is an illusion IMO. The robotic body can function on its own for a long time basing its decisions on instinct, learned behavior or randomness, but it has no true free will. Consciousness has to nudge the body into some course of action, but body/brain/mind is then on its own. Consciousness watches and attends to its various robotic bodies, trains them, instructs them, but their internal processes are automatic.

@phxbillcee Not sure how else to phrase it. I agree, the brain is doing all the work.

@WilliamFleming I am of the opinion that the brain produces consciousness. I don't see how it can be any other way. What makes you think that consciousness is "primary in nature"? The best estimate is that conscious creatures arrived on the scene about 500 million years ago.

@WilliamFleming I don't understand what you mean when you say "It's not MY consciousness...". Each person's "self" is their consciousness & is a product of their brain. We have an autonomic nervous system that attends to our basic 'functions', & can even, thru things like 'motor memory' allow many things to become almost 'automatic', but that system runs in parallel to our conscious & "sub-conscious" mind. I'm a monist, not a dualist, so I agree that the 'self' being separate from the body is an illusion, but many functions actually can become conscious thru forms of meditation or bio-feedback methods.

@RandyTerry I think you have to differentiate between bodily consciousness, which is a product of the brain, and deep conscious awareness—the experience of being aware of our existence. A computer/robot can be equipped with sensors, and have sentience, but it has no awareness. That which is aware is of a higher order IMO.

I don’t see how a physical object such as s brain or computer could possibly produce conscious awareness. I don’t care how many neurons are firing or how many switches are being turned on and off, that is just mechanical. To me it seems impossible, and no one has ever explained how it might be done. We don’t even know what conscious awareness is, except it’s what we experience, and we certainly don’t understand how it is created, if that is even a meaningful concept.

@phxbillcee See my reply to RandyTerry. If our sense of self as a separate body is an illusion, then what the heck are we? We must be something because we experience awareness. Perhaps our true and higher essence is that awareness. The same awareness that is watching and managing your robotic body might be doing the same for mine. We might be considered extensions of that higher conscious awareness.

It’s just an intuitive concept that can’t be proven, but some very astute people have entertained the idea, among them several of the founders of modern physics.

@WilliamFleming So, the old "Argument From Incredulity"? & how the heck, & by what method, would your "awareness" be able to manage both of us? What is this "awareness"...god? You're in the wrong place, brother!!! Sorry, I don't want to hear an "Argument From Authority", either. Don't cite "founders of modern physics", cite peer-reviewed papers & experimental results or I just call "WOO" on your whole argument. (Which I usually do on fuzzy 'spiritual' concepts with nothing to back them up!) Prove your "higher conscious awareness"! If you can, I'll give it some credence, you haven't even come close, here!

@phxbillcee IMO there are many valuable ideas worth pondering and discussing that have not been proven or that are unprovable. There is nothing wrong with discussing unproven ideas, and in fact,
such discussion is an integral part of science. When I was in elementary school plate tectonics was considered a far-out, fringe topic, but not today.

If you don’t want to think about it, then don’t. If you are interested you might read about Donald Hoffman’s “Conscious Realism”.

@WilliamFleming How would you know that a robot is sentient? How do you know that I am sentient? How would you know a robot is not aware? Ever seen Ex Machina?

You are getting into the hard problem of consciousness. Indeed, all we have are our experiences. We do not create our experiences, they just happen. Thoughts simply occur to us. The only plausible explanation is that our brains are producing our subjective experience. We have mapped the brain to a certain degree. Seems like you are saying that consciousness cannot be produced by a machine, but consciousness can exist all on its own.

MisterD is known for his off-center humor, as well as the strength of his arguments!

I agree, I love this guy!

P.S. Go, Devils!!!