Regarding the Geography of Heaven and Hell
Attention all True Believers: Have you actually seen Heaven? No? Have you actually seen Hell? No? Do you know anyone who has actually seen Heaven or Hell? No? If Heaven and Hell are physical places then you'd suspect that astronomers (by now) would have spotted Heaven "up there" and geologists would have (by now) found actual seismic evidence of Hell "down there" [#]. In any event all of the fires of Hell should have been doused by that 'global flood'. Now you may have FAITH that Heaven and Hell exist; you may even have some degree of BELIEF that Heaven and Hell exist, but you most certainly don't KNOW that Heaven and Hell exist. If you and no one that you've ever known have ever visited Hell, you can have absolutely no idea what the dimensions of Hell are. True Believers are just making it all up.
By the by, what 'below' (not on) earth does Hell actually have to do with Satan? Satan didn't create Hell; God created hell (and we all know that God loves you). Now True Believers have to ask the question, does the punishment of eternal hell fit the crime? Finally, not all theologies actually postulate a Hell - or a Heaven for that matter. So my final question to True Believers is, what makes you right and theologies that don't advocate a Heaven or Hell, like the Quakers, wrong? Extraordinary claims, and Heaven and Hell ARE extraordinary claims, require evidence. True Believers have provided absolutely NO evidence to back up their wild assertions that Heaven and Hell exist.
[#] Plate tectonics, sea-floor spreading, continental drift, call it what you will, all that geological activity would pretty much destroy the concept of an underground Hell. A real underground Hell would be pretty much crushed out of actual existence in a fairly short period of time - geologically speaking. One good earthquake or volcanic eruption and it's bye-bye Hell.
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Feel free to reply to any comment by clicking the "Reply" button.It was the physics, not the geography that pretty much lost me on the whole idea.
p-nullifidian
Level 8
Oct 5, 2018
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When I was a believer I was unperturbed by claims that I had "no evidence" because I had the "evidence" of my beliefs / feelings and the testimony of fellow believers, plus scripture. These things are all the evidence a religious believer requires to feel that they have esoteric gnosis that you don't and can't. So while I agree with you, I have found bleating this at believers is just a way to expend energy to no good purpose. You'll never get them to admit the entire basis of their belief-system is wrong. They're far too invested in it.
The root problem of theism is that religious faith is a failed epistemology that fails to accurately explain or predict experienced reality. The cognitive dissonance from that failure is what pulls them out of the dream of theism, one by one. Not rational arguments per se. It's nice to have them out there, so that there's some workable and valid epistemology for them to embrace after they eject religious faith. But do not imagine you're going to force them to bow to rational discourse. Indeed, they are heavily conditioned to disparage it.
mordant
Level 8
Oct 4, 2018
1
@johnprytz Yes it happens now and then, but I think it's part of a process already set in motion by the motivating forces I mentioned in my last response ... that a person is even willing to call in to interact with unbelievers reflects either total ignorance of what they're dealing with, delusions of grandeur, or some already-developed need to answer the demands of atheism's actual logical arguments, that have already been exerting a gravitational pull on them.
Over on the atheists & agnostics forum on city-data there are a couple of people who if you go back in their posting history several years used to root for the other side and then came around to unbelief.
I also am of the view that there are, at any given time, many lurkers who cannot admit their doubts to themselves, much less others, who nevertheless are considering and digesting discussions like this. I'd guess that for every theist who actively engages in an online forum there are close to a hundred who are lurking and pondering.
Since very few theists engage here, for whatever reasons (I'm surprised there are not at least more drive-by postings by the truly delusional) the number of such doubters is probably relatively small. But I rather like the repast from them. I have gotten weary of the dreary consistency of their deeply flawed arguments. Nothing new and imaginative, and certainly nothing challenging ...
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