What examples of male privilege in the USA bare you refering too? Are you talking about child custody going to women 80% of the time, and the other 20% not being forced to meet support obligations? Are you talking about leinancy in judical/criminal matters for women compared to men? Are you talking about suicide and work related deaths being higher for men, as well as a lower life expectancy? Are you talking about college enrollement stastics? Are you talking about current trends in pay gaps (due partly to decrease in male college enrollement)? Are you talking about heath concerns like breast cancer, when prostate cancer is essentially ignored? Are you talking portrayal of men as idiots or rapist in the media? Are you talking about forced selective service signup?

@jondspen we don't have a draft in this country, as it happens. leniency is not given to women if they're black and it is given to men if they're white. college enrollment stats are not part of female privilege; indeed, women had to fight to be allowed to be educated to begin with, and they're still discouraged from studying math and the sciences. please do not confuse prostate and breast cancer with societal privilege or its opposite, and prostate cancer is NOT virtually ignored at ALL. men are portrayed as being falsely accused of being rapists when some of them really are rapists, and as for idiots.... stop acting like idiots and you'll stop being pegged as idiots. meanwhile women make 70 cents on the dollar if they're white, less if they're not, for the same work their male colleagues make. i could go on but i have to go now.

g

@genessa We do have selective service, which men and men alone are required to sign up for.

Leniency is given to women across the board in criminal cases.
[law.umich.edu]

Men/Women college enrollement
[collegestats.org]

Women in Nursing (which takes a LOT of math ability, so are men being sexually discriminated against?)
[beckershospitalreview.com]

Gender specific cancer funding and awareness (government throwing money at women's issues but ignoring men isn't a social privilege? Really?!?!)
[katatrepsis.com]

False rape convictions and convictions for those making false claims
[theguardian.com]

Depiction of men in the media
[goodmenproject.com]

Gended pay gap myth
[forbes.com]

So, while I provide actual links to my assertions...you just made some general comments that go along with the current zeitgeist and call it truth. I'm not saying men don't have privilege, nor that women don't have privilege...I'm just saying that perhaps the perception that women are always the perpetual victimized underdog is not entirely factual.

So again, what male privilege do you refer to? And please don't use the CEO breakdown...since it's been reasonably argued that is mostly due to the amount of work (80+ hours a week)and lack of family life one must have to achieve that level in corporate America, which most women don't find appealing compared to family relationships.

@jondspen half of your assertions have nothing to do with female privilege. the rest are pretty iffy i am not at home now to take my time and look up better sources but i can tell you the pay gap is no myth and any source that says otherwise has NO credibility.

g

@genessa Said citing no evidence or data. And I never said anything about female privilege, you are misdirecting the argument. I asked you to give examples of male privilege, and stated cases where women TYPICALLY have a better situation than men - an argument that undermines your position of the existence of male privilege.

The pay gap is a myth. In fact, a current study was done in 8 major cities (I remember Atlanta and Memphis being 2 of them) and women on average made 8% more. The pay gap you refer to is 1960-70 data, that failed to take into account women that choose to stay at home and earn no income, take off for family (either maternity leave or permanently leave the work force), or are less educated and thus stuck in jobs like waitress (below minimum wage) or cashiers (minimum wage). Uneducated men typically can get jobs paying 10-15 an hour, or more, working in oil fields, driving trucks, etc (jobs women typically don't apply for nor want). The fact that you summarily dismiss it without even reading it or evaluating it's interpretation of the data speaks volumes about your ability to be open minded and use critical thinking to evaluate new data.

@jondspen yes, i have explained that i am not at home but okay, i won't bother then when i get home, since you'll twist things around anyway. have a nice life.

g

@genessa I realize you're not at home...but you also didn't have to automatically deny something without proper research and investigation. You could have easily respond with just a "I'm not at home...but I'll comment later when I have time to properly engage." I really couldn't give a shit less if you respond or not now though; you already have shown you have made up your mind regardless, so why try to have a dialogue?

@jondspen but i do NOT intend to comment later. i am dismissing you and your assertions. you don't give a shit? good, i give none either. i have no intention of continuing a dialogue with you. i prefer to talk to people who are NOT idiots. i thought i'd blocked you, just before the wifi pooped out. i'll do it now.

g

Hmmm....I would have been in the back and not taken one step forward. So where is my white privilege again? I also noticed only a small percentage of the whites were up in the front. Shouldn't white privilege be universal if it's real? Finally, one of my best friends from H.S. was black, his parents both college professors, and would have been up in the front. So again, how is this exclusively "white privilege"? B/c it applies to some or most...therefore we can attribute it to all? That kinda sounds like racism - attributing characteristics to a person based solely on their skin color.

@jondspen I can't tell if your misunderstanding is genuine or deliberate, but you are literally proving the point of this video. Everyone has privileges and disadvantages. Race is one of them, but not the complete picture. Your starting point doesn't necessarily determine your ending point, but does factor into the effort required to reach your goals.

@Minta79 Im not saying people are not privilege over other...I am saying being white has nothing to do with it in today's society (there are many other factors that are more substantial). That doens't mean racism doesn't exist, but the existence of racism doesn't prove white privilege. There are laws to protect against racism against minorities, gives them special hiring preference, gives them preference in academic acceptance, but yet all I keep hearing is "white privilege". Same aregument could b e said for "female privelege" or "yellow privelege (asians)" - but for some reason there is no one that believes these are really a thing.

@jondspen Oh, well I guess if you wouldn't have taken one step forward that negates the fact that the video had an considerable number of white people that did step forward and the minorities were in the back. That's a great argument, almost as strong as "climate change isn't real because I was cold today".

@jondspen so, deliberate, then...

@mattersauce OK....and what was the breakdown of the group? Was the group statistically relevant? Was there any p-hacking in the experiment? Can you 100% prove the group wasn't gerimanderedd to prove a point?

@jondspen No it was all a big conspiracy. About a hundred people, mostly white got together to trick you. Racism is real, minorities are not offered the same opportunities and we need laws to try and fix that, BUT privelige isn't real, because those opportunities they AREN'T getting, you are, but that's not real. Man we couldn't pull the wool over your eyes, you're like an eagle.

@mattersauce Again...never said privilege isn't real...just saying that a racist stance that "white privilege" is real is racist and incorrect. And thank you for avoiding answering my questions about 'validity' of your 'proof' - oh, wait, you didn't! See, I can use sarcasm also.

@jondspen You can, and you're a master too. Oh you wanted me to validate a youtube video, yes I had a team of psychologists and sociologists review it, interview the participants, and do a double blind study on its findings against real life scenarios over the lifetime of whites and minorities. Because if I didn't do all of that, you don't have to believe the bullshit right?

It's bogus, you got me. I just really want to give minorities (of which I'm not) a lot of free shit for no reason. Once again, minorities suffer from racism, but you don't benefit at all, that makes perfect sense.

Hey we all know that if you don't like the stance it requires proof or its fake. If you do like it, then it's gospel. You listened to both sides, gathered all of your reasoning and critical thinking skills, and came up with the best answer that also makes you feel good. Nice work!

@mattersauce I just pointed out your little video doesn't attribute the questions to some nefarious agenda by whites against all other races. I also provided a reasonable argument that it probably isn't an accurate sample group. But hey, you are right, I do have an agenda, it's called expecting resonable arguments based on solid science and facts, not feelings or impressions.

@jondspen It's actually called "denial reality". It's a term psychologists use when a person is in denial, they engage in distractive or escapist strategies to reduce stress and help them cope.

In this case, you don't want to deal with the painful fact that you have it better than minorities because you don't want to admit that you benefit from racism, ie. privilege. In this instance your distractive and escapist strategies are acting as if the video or any arguments made against your case are not verified or accurate. Your agenda is defending your fragile ego. This is all pretty simple stuff, you can continue to act tough and smart but it's just an act.

@mattersauce And here we go...can't argue a point, so resort to the personal attacks, labeling a person whom you have never fucking met! How arrogant of you to tell me how better I have had it in my life, while not knowing one damn thing about my past, nor anything about me beyond what is posted in my bio (if you even bothered to read that).

I think I will follow Mark Twain's advice, “Never argue with a fool, onlookers may not be able to tell the difference.”

Goodbye fool...

@jondspen LOL, you feel attacked so you're running away huh? Way to counterpoint that "fragile ego" thing.

@MichaelSpinler That isn't white privilege...that racism against blacks, which I won't deny occurs. If it's white privilege, then ANY and EVERY white person can get away with it, while every other race (not just blacks, but asian, jews, native americans, native islanders, latino) can not. Statistically, that is not the case. It's a subtle distinction...but substantial and important.

@MichaelSpinler Let's get some definitions out here, just to make sure we're on the same page. These come from [wordnik.com]

privilege - A special advantage, immunity, permission, right, or benefit granted to or enjoyed by an individual, class, or caste.

racism - Discrimination or prejudice based on race.

A black person's lack of fair and equal treatment based on their race is called racism. ALL white people getting approved for a loan, or accepted to a school, or getting a job above ALL other races would be "white privilege", which doesn't exist and I have yet to find or been shown any proof this occurs. So yes, they are completely separate issues.

Racism is a huge factor, as well as economic and/or political benefits inherited from your family. But to ascribe that white people have it easier just b/c they are white is ...well, racist. I can understand the inadvertent slide toward this, but it is a misinterpretation of the fact and the situation. Asians can be said to have the same, if not more privilege as compared to blacks...do you believe in "Yellow Privilege"?

@MichaelSpinler "Instead, white privilege should be viewed as a built-in advantage, separate from one’s level of income or effort." - ok, so give me some examples of this built in advantage exclusive to whites and whites only (not asians or any other race), that cannot be ascribed to population composition metric, economic or political inheritance, and is also not a result of direct racism against a person based solely on their skin color.

@MichaelSpinler Sure....I will agree there was MAJOR white privilege in the early US. But then again, Scots and Irish people during slavery were treated WORSE than slaves, b/c slaves had a monetary value ascribed to them. I don't deny that....I deny that it exists today and ask for one tangible piece of evidence with STASTICAL DATA and REPRODUCABLE reseach methods. Yea...as a scientist and atheist...I kinda expect that instead of some b.s. PhD paper that has no credible research methodology and is just an op ed piece being pushed as academic research.

@MichaelSpinler What communities are blocked from voting? I am not aware of any community in the US where cops physically block people from voting. As far as ratio of teacher, there must also be a "female privilege" since like 80-90% of teachers in the US are female, yet the population breakdown is 49% male/515 female. Also, GIVE ME SOME DATA - you say teacher composition shows "white privilege" - ok, show me the ratio of teachers by race in the US, as well as some data on the application rate per minority. Considering blacks make up less than 15% of the population, and many don't or can't afford college - it's no wonder they may not be represented percentage wise. Not sure why asking for some data or proof to back your claim is "deflection". These papers you have mentioned, the initial claim made would not even hold up to the requirements of a hypothesis in a high school science class, much less from PhD level grad students or tenured professors. No, deflection and just saying stuff without some backing won't win YOUR case.

And you have yet to prove any proof the above discrimination isn't based on racism vs privilege, nor proven it is not related to economic, educational, or geographic advantages.

@MichaelSpinler You're right...I read BBC, AlJazeera, and Reuters, and I refuse to watch TV news. None of these news agencies have reported on Georgia precluding American citizens to vote. Care to provide a link, other than just saying it's so and I should believe you?

ANd BTW...do you seek out people and articles that contradict you're argument...because I have read items from both sides, and since I'm an atheist...I don't believe anything without proof and data that I can interpretate myself.

EDIT - Aljazerra just ran this about Georgia. I haven't read yet but wanted to update my last post b4 you use it to claim I am uneucated and live in an echo chamber

[aljazeera.com]

@MichaelSpinler And you have already shown that you believe it without citing any stastical or emperically testable proof, just like a christian doesn't b/c it makes them feel all warm and cozy inside.

If there are countless examples, why after asking TIME AND TIME again do you continue to refuse to provide any? Like proof of gods or religion, the burden of proof is on the person making the claim. Native Americans being dropped from the poles could have been b/c they could not prove which voting precinct there were in. Would you want a bunch of people coming into your election area and voting for a their prefered candidate, instead of the people in that area electing one of their own to represent their views in city, county, state, and federal leglilative bodies? Is it right, no - but that is due to republicans being POS and trying to rig the system in their favor, not b/c they think only whites should vote.

BTW...what links? you haven't provided one link to anything you've said yet.

Finally - I guess that these two cases of trying to ensure fair elections is proof of your "white privilege"? Seems like if it was a thing...these wouldn't be happening.

[aljazeera.com]

[reuters.com]

I am tapping out. I ask for proof, you seem to take the stance the proof is self-evident. It's obvious neither of us are going to change the others mind. No use wasting time arguing with you since you are damn determined to not acknowledge anything I have linked, and refuse to give me anything but your 'word' it's real. Thanks for the conversation though - I do hope that here soon neither of us will be talking about our racist problems in the USA.

Update - 3/4 of the below are black people, guess they just don't understand the plight of their skin color. And no, I didn't go looking for them, these are the top four link that popped up - imagine that!

@MichaelSpinler You obviously never heard of Hitchens's razor. You made the statement, it's not me to go out and prove it for you, which BTW I did lookup the Georgia voter situation (aljazerra link), but you obviously are the one too lazy to look up anything I have posted. And no, you haven't posted one single link to any source, while I have posted a link to NINE different URLs. The only person you cite is a woman who doesn't even do any current research or have tenure at ANY accredited academic institution, nor is recognized enough in her field to receive grants to conduct PEER REVIEWED RESEARCH. This is from her website..."Kendall tailors all of her work to meet the needs of individual clients..." - so she tailors her work to give the clients what they want, but isn't concerned about this subject to do actual research or dedicating herself to academia in order to raise humanities collective knowledge. No, she opts to SELL HER BOOKS, TIME, AND LECTURE APPEARANCE. Yea, don't see that being a little suspect. Also, you have yet to prove any correlation between any of your statements (Native Americans and the Georgia elections) and your claim of "white privilege".

Let me dumb this down for you, since you obviously don't have a clue about how wrapped up in YOUR agenda you really are:

God is real. Just because you don't believe it doesn't mean it isn't there. The proof is out there, you have to go look for it.

Pink Flying Unicorns are real. Just because you don't believe it doesn't mean it isn't there. The proof is out there, you have to go look for it.

And your paraphrased statement - White Privilege is real. Just because you don't believe it doesn't mean it isn't there. The proof is out there, you have to go look for it.

I was pretty patient with you yesterday, asked again and again for some type of proof, yet all you do is give some vague event, fail to show correlation, and then attack me as having an agenda without ever addressing my questions, all the while ignoring my references. My only agenda is to properly address the causes of the problems today, not make up some BS social conspiracy to make myself out to be a white knight to assuage some race guilt I have. Funny how you have the audacity to say I'm racist, even when I provide 3 video links to black people saying the same thing I've been saying. Guess those three black people are racist also? I try not to attack people on here...but after your BS logic, numerous personal attacks, and constant deflection of every point I've made, I'm done. Go ahead and get the last word in, I refuse to waste my time anymore.

@MichaelSpinler Racism has been the talking point for a very long time. How has that worked? Now the rhetoric is getting expanded to "white privilege" (whatever that means). This divide as opposed to unite. And now I will stop talking about it.

If you've never feared for your life from a simple interaction with the cops it's because you are white. If you've never feared for your life when on a date, it's because you're male and straight. I'm so white I glow, but even I know white privilege is real, it is pervasive, and it a cultural norm that needs to change.

@CommonHuman no, it's because i don't habitually break the law, and i do what the cops tell me to do while interacting.

@CommonHuman, @MichaelSpinler to quantify means to calculate....Where's the math?

@MichaelSpinler I guess that's my point: The built-in advantage is simply a product of our majority, not some sinister plot by white folks to capture and control advantages in our society.....There's more of us, so we have more...period, wash ur hands, we're done!

@MichaelSpinler dude, in all seriousness, u need to check-out the crime stats. I'm not trying to be a smart-ass or belittle u in any way....That anecdotal BS makes me want to pull my hair our!

@MichaelSpinler the cops, just like u, me, and the rest of Earth's population, are just playing the odds!

@MichaelSpinler what if they commit "far less crime"?