I'm not against guns. We have guns. We have 2 rifles, a shotgun, and 2 handguns. We live in the country and have to kill vermin sometimes, usually our dog takes care of that. We used to hunt and that is why we have the guns mostly. We went through a phase of target shooting pistols at targets. All guns are always locked in the safe. I don't understand why anyone needs an arsenal. It's not like you are collecting anything else, these are lethal killing machines. Time and time again they end up in the wrong hands, legally or illegally. The old argument, 'the government is coming for my guns' is so lame. Nothing causes people to be more irrational than guns, why is that? Any psychologists out there? Please explain.
We have laws against fireworks, for Christ's sake, because people get hurt. I think maybe part of this comes down to that so many people have to personally know someone who has died to have the will to see that this is serious. I don't know, but I'm afraid that again nothing will even be attempted to keep our kids safe short of more survival programs in the school. It's like it's the new cold war. I remember the "cover your heads and get under your desk' drills, only this threat is even more real and more inevitable that someone somewhere will be dead again for NO real reason.
We will not ever be able to keep guns from mentally ill people. Even with a law to block them from buying them. Many mentally ill people aren't on any radar out there to be identified. Most people are just dealing with their illness without any real help for it. Many can't afford medication and many won't take it if they have it. So even if you can blame mental illness there's not much to do about it. Well, that's my rant, I will stop now.
14
Enjoy being online again!
Welcome to the community of good people who base their values on evidence and appreciate civil discourse - the social network you will enjoy.Create your free account
22 comments
Feel free to reply to any comment by clicking the "Reply" button.Just ban guns and take them off people.
Then when they get upset about losing their guns, send them thoughts and prayers.
If thoughts and prayers are good enough for those who have lost loved ones, they must be good enough for those that lose their guns....
Uncorrugated
Level 7
Feb 16, 2018
11
Who's coming to to get them? You?
Nope. You can shoot each other as much as you like. America isn't on my travel itinerary. 
I can understand citizens using handguns, rifles, and shotguns used for hunting and personal protection. However, there is no need for ordinary citizens to have access to semi-automatic weapons. The are only used for killing.
ballou
Level 8
Feb 16, 2018
10
You do know that a modern pistol is semi automatic, right? Also you don't usually use pistols for hunting. Some pistols are made for bore hunting and or bear defense. The second amendment wasn't created for hunting, it was aknowledged by the founding fathers to be a necessity for liberty. Many modern firearms of the hunting variety are semi-automatic. Many of those are of a higher caliber than is necessary to down a human because some animals are larger than humans. You need to do more research before you enter a debate. Here are the actual facts about guns in America. [gunowners.org]
how so . ? get real . no guns = no gun killing ! DUH
@Hugh I get my facts from data. Real mature. Would you call your doctor a smug asshole for telling you that you're sick? I have a degree in the field. You, are a layman.
@markdevenish I hope that's sarcasm.
@balou whoa, have you seen any of my other posts? I'm a gunsmith. I support gun rights.
@jayneonacobb I really think you are missing my point.
@balou I think your post that I was responding to was deleted. I get your point, you think people shouldn't have the proper modern equipment needed to provide security to themselves and others.
Nobody needs an AR15 for hunting or protection. Assault weapons shouldn't be sold to the public, they are only good for killing large numbers of people.
jeffy
Level 7
Feb 16, 2018
7
We have already established that you lack the ability to make a coherent argument regarding gun control. Give it up. You've been bested by the facts. Changing venues doesn't help your cause. It actually undermines it. I'll call you Kenny Ham from now on.
@jayneonacobb You live in a pop gun fantasy world. You have no cogent arguments.
@jayneonacobb You make no sense. 17 kids were just killed. If Bush had kept the assault weapons ban, that guy would not have been able to buy the AR15. There is no reason for people to have assault weapons in the first place.
@icolan has it worked here? No. Laws don't stop crime.
@ShakenManChild Jeffy here has continually made personal attacks against me. If he's going to be a dick I'm not going to sit by and take his crap.
@icolan it does, but taking peoples ability to stop these tragedies is not a solution. With as many guns as we have it would be impossible to get rid of them. And even if you could, people will make more. I know I will, because I have a right to keep and bare arms.
@jayneonacobb It's not you - it's your arguments. They are misinformed IMO due to a lack of basis and are not logically consistent because what you are expressing are beliefs, not facts. You are probably an OK guy. You like guns and you take care of yours. The problem is you can't control the people who cause problems and it isn't your job. This is why we have government. It's our government, but it is corrupted by big business and so government don't listen to practical, common sense solutions, they just want money for nothing and chicks for free. And they get it, and do nothing. Blame the Koch Brothers.
@jeffy the basis is the terms used in the constitution and Bill of rights. That's the only thing that matters in this debate as that is the law. Your honest opinion has no weight in this debate. It's based on your feelings, not an objective understanding of the bill of rights, particularly the second amendment. Those are facts, not my opinion.
I appreciate your confidence in my character. I think you are also likely a good person. I agree that politicans and lobbyists ruined this country. That doesn't change the bill of rights.
Language can be just as dangerous as bullets, but no one in their right mind wants to ban free speech. If it's a right it shall not be infringed upon. That is the basis of my argument. That and the definitions of the carefully chosen words which constitute the bill of rights and our nation's constitution.
Distrust of the government is healthy and exactly what this country was founded on. The term "necessary evil" was and is often used to describe government accurately. That means not trusting them is the default position as I have no evidence to lead me to believe that they are trust worthy or good. That is why I support peoples rights, not their opinions.
@icolan the presence of a gun is a powerful crime deterent. That's why cops have them, they are quite effective at it. I live far away from people. If I need a gun it better damn well be better than theirs because if push comes to shove I don't want to be the one in the body bag when the cops get here 30 minutes later. Criminals have any weapons they can afford on the black market. I want the same hardware.
@jayneonacobb Sorry, the Constitution and the government are the same thing. The Constitution is supposed to be changed when government doesn't work right. What is happening isn't right and it shall not stand.
I’d say we can keep our guns, we’re responsible owners, lacking an arsonal or deadly agenda.. You asked, “Nothing causes people to be more irrational than guns, why is that?” Took a year each of college sociology and psychology, but I’m no psychologist, just someone having paid very close attention through life… Guns are viewed by the weak as their ‘leveler,’ they may not have your assets or capabilities, but they’ve got what it takes to kill you with a twitch of their finger.. I’ve been around loggers, where it’s said ‘falling a trees’ leaves them orgazmic. Though it makes me sick, I’ve witnessed that giddy high amid logger…
I’ve also witnessed the same from gun nuts. My former place in the woods was next to one; had his gun safe, reloading gear, and a gun for every day of the month. An adult, and father, older than myself ..this guy’d become childlike with glee over shooting holes through plate steel, fir trees, sheets of glass, wrecked cars … he’d even fabricated a miniature cannon! And when his buddies met up there on weekends, it’s like WW3 had begun!
There are those who arm themselves with the apparent and admitted mindset (if they trust you enough to give an honest response) that, they don’t have to get along with their neighbors, all they need is “this gun.” They don’t need to follow the law, they’ve “got this right here if they come snoopin around.” They don’t need to fear the Russians … “not with this baby next to me in bed.” And the most recent - they’re “ready for the zombie invasion!” ...small minded paranoid poorly educated societal freaks..
Guns confirm their manhood, their Freedom! ...they may not have a pot to piss in -- but by god - you’re only upright for the moment because they haven’t decided to shoot you.. And those are ‘the responsible ones!’ The ones who listen to Rush, or FOX … go to church - and vote!
The one’s responsible for slaughtering innocents are far worse.. Yes, they’re “crazy,” but it appears they can accumulate all the damn bullets and assault rifles they need to jack up their numbers on their way out… “He seemed like a nice guy,” “He was always such a quiet boy”... “I had no idea he was capable of anything like this”...
I’d be willing to relinquish some of my weapons to help stop this ongoing epidemic.. 3 decades ago I thought different, nearly joined the NRA.. Nearly bought the reloading equipment to feed my nearly purchased .223 semi-auto assault rifle … and was accused elsewhere around here just today of ‘not being very knowledgeable about guns.’ My daughters are out of college now, can anyone relate to silent fear of dropping them off at middle, high school ..or knowing they’re away at college when one of these atrocities go down.. Don’t know that my thinking’s changed as much as my perspective.
It may be too late, this may be the new normal. And as hard as I’ve worked politically, if I were a betting person, I’d bet big against anything close to workable being passed within my lifetime... Not to say I won’t continue to waste my time trying, but the depth of depravity exhibited by this ‘freedom loving nation,’ along with it’s lack of political leadership almost has me where they want me ...whipped ~
Sorry, too, for the long piece, but I appreciate yours.
Varn
Level 8
Feb 16, 2018
5
I agree that there are people who own guns that probably shouldn't. Like your neighbor. That doesn't mean he doesn't have the right to self defense though. Responsible ownership and use is paramount when dealing with fire arms. Education is important in every arena.
There are many people that I don't think are capable of handling fire arms appropriately. That doesn't change the fact that better education promotes safety. I can't tell you how many cops I know that aren't properly educated in firearms operation and safety.
Varn:
@jayneonacobb Agreed, that former neighbor was a very educated guy though, and electrical engineer, mapping out motherboards for Intel. He was good father and husband, too. He just loved guns! Someone had loaned him an M1 Garand for the weekend, smooth… I’ve not forgot watching him disassemble and reassemble it on his living room floor one Sat. night ..while stoned. He’d taught me how to reload, got to shoot a 44 mag… We’d actually hunted a pack of wild dogs through the frosty hills by moonlight ..and got one.
I’d gone to college to become a cop, ‘Defence Tactics 1&2’ was eye opening … got ‘a tour’ of our instructors vehicle. A member of the Portland ‘SERT Team’ -- talk about an arsonal!
I’m convinced the problem’s far beyond gun safety, though … these killings are not happening by accident.. As mentioned, I lived in the deep woods, couldn’t see another place from my own, and my deepest fear was a home invasion with my little family. Our dog was worthless, deputies got lost looking for us (on the border of the county to boot), so I armed up… But I never felt a semi auto assault weapon was necessary.. Taught a lot of friends to shoot, though.. Simpler times, I guess 
@Varn I'm sorry for your loss. Thumbs up for the rest though.
@Hugh I clearly stated that the second amendment guarantees the right to keep and bare arms. Although, if some one is a prisoner or mentally ill enough to cause harm to themselves or others than those rights are suspended until recovery is achieved, if possible, or the prisoner has paid their debt to society. Once they become full citizens again they have full rights again. Inalienable and unabridgable are defined terms. Those terms were used to secure the rights of American citizens in propriety. That means that as long as you are a citizen who is not committed or imprisoned with good reason, you need to have access to arms.
I also have two shotguns, two pistols and a CC license here in VA, but I only carry on long trips. AND I have never had to bring them out much less use them at home or on the road. I have only ever taken them to range, in case I did need to use them I would know how and do so safely. I am NOT against guns or responsible gun owners. My Daddy had a rug at the front door that said "When guns are outlawed only Outlaws will have guns" and I believe that to my core. That being said, NOBODY needs an assault rifle unless they are doing an assault, such as police or a soldier. These high powered/multi-firing weapons have no place in ANY household.
Candy
Level 4
Feb 16, 2018
5
Totally against guns and the US and its various breathtakingly horrific statistics about shootings and gunshot fatalities is an obvious illustrative example why having permissive gun ownership laws is just plain stupid and utterly irresponsible. 18 school shootings in 44 days. Getting shot by a toddler is more likely than getting shot by a terrorist.
There is no other country getting even close to the amount of deaths, injury, tragedy and dispair needlessly caused by the obsession about guns that so many US citizens show.
And it is not just the obsession about ownership. It is the whole culture of thinking that it is every person's right to take "justice" into their own hands.
It is so blatantly obvious that the way how the obvious gets ignored literally hurts any rationally thinking brain.
I am also quite happy to live in civilised countries where I am not surrounded by people owning guns. And where the result is that, you know, the number of people getting killed by guns around me is orders of magnitude lower, and school shooting are essentially unheard of or occur every couple of decades.
josmi6699
Level 6
Feb 16, 2018
3
I don't have anything against guns. I don't want one for myself. I actually had to get the salesman at the sporting goods store to explain to my son why I shouldn't own a gun (I would never use it against another person, ever) because he wouldn't believe me when I was the one telling him. The problem isn't guns. It's the fact that too many gun owners have guns because they're scared and scared people have no business with a weapon. Fear leads to mistakes.
PhoebeCat
Level 7
Feb 16, 2018
4
well I am totally against guns. you can only kill so many people with a knife or a crow bar, guns are too easy for the small minded male
markdevenish
Level 7
Feb 16, 2018
5
With a knife you never run out of ammo. One could wreak havoc with a machete or sword in a crowded place.
Any evidence to support your position? Here's mine.
[gunowners.org]
That, son, is how you debate. Your feelings don't matter, only facts.
@ShakenManChild you do realize that I am a weapons expert, particularly in the field of guns, right? You're basically arguing against your doctor about weather or not your sick when you argue guns with me. You will never have as full a grasp of gun laws as I do. Your liberal propaganda is moot. My sources include the FBI'S report on gun crime, yours includes cherry picked bits of that same report. The difference is I analyzed the other 99% of the data.
@ShakenManChild I'm an expert on gun law and guns. That's completely relevant to this debate. I used an analogy to equate how poorly thought out gun control arguments are.
I totally agree.
I just hate the way these pro-gun people try to frame the debate into all or nothing propositions. It does what we currently have; stalemate and inaction.
Mental health is a serious issue in this country, but by using it as an excuse, it actually undermines the ability of helping those suffering with mental illness by stigmatizing it even more so than it already is.
LucifersPen
Level 7
Feb 16, 2018
4
I was just saying this yesterday in a discussion with a conservative. They go right to the extremes and try to justify having no regulation at all saying that today it's regulation and tomorrow it's gun confiscation and killing citizens. Remember when they said Obama was going to take away everyone's guns? They say it whenever there is a Democrat in office.
The second amendment illustrates my right to own weapons equivicable to those that the government possesses.
@jayneonacobb: I'll only accept that argument to the extent to what the government had in mind in 1776. How's your black powder muzzle-loading skills?
you don't have any free social workers to look after your unfortunates. pay pay pay that's all you know. the survival of the fittest . RIIIIIGHT NOT
@LucifersPen moot point. Black powder is antiquated. I can place a round on a 3x5 index card at 1000 yards, open sights with a 30-06. It's called depalma. You have your smooth bore musket, I'll be on this hill 2.5 miles away with a 408. No that's not a threat, it's a hypothetical scenario that illustrates how awful your argument is.
@jayneonacobb: Keep going. You keep demonstrating my point. For what fucking reason to do you need this, unless you're in LE or the military, because w/o those two reasons, you're showing to the world how seriously bent you are to overcompensate for something else.
@LucifersPen again, slander and nonsequiters are your go to because your arguing from your feelings, not objectively.
@jayneonacobb: As I stated before, unless you're in LE, security, or the military...YOU ARE OWNING THESE WEAPONS BASED ON NOTHING BUT FEELINGS!
@LucifersPen where does it say that anywhere in the bill of rights? Whose rights do you think those are? The governments?
When the market is this flooded there really is no choice but to regulate more effectively.
FFS lawn darts, bucky balls, Knockers(anyone remember those?) are banned in the US. It never ceases to amaze me the contrarianism.
NO ONE needs a freaking AR. I feel bad even having resold late dh's, albeit to a "reputable" buyer. Would rather have given it to a buy back program to be melted down.
Qualia
Level 8
Feb 16, 2018
4
I remember jarts and knockers!
I don't need an ar, they are crap. I need a reliable weapon for resource acquisition in case of an assault on my rights.
@jayneonacobb only in the states. you lot are demented where guns and jails are concerned. [ and health care and social programs and teacher pay and ............]
I miss my lawn darts.
To be quite honest it's not the guns that truthfully do harm to humans it's the idiots that are using them or behind the trigger that is doing the harm. All of us that own gun's of all kinds know this.
MyrddinSr666
Level 4
Feb 16, 2018
2
take away the gun and you have solved that problem
@markdevenish WHAT PROBLEM? If a person wants to kill you...or many....he / she will find the way to do so.
A well known nut-case in town told his ex "I WILL KILL YOU, YOUR BOYFRIEND AND EVERYBODY AROUND." Yes, he was in jail -10 years-, his ex moved to another province....all precautions were taken. Upon his release, he tracked his ex and when she and her now new hubby were working he entered their home and injected rat poison in their bottles of water and mixed the same poison with the sugar and flour in the kitchen cabinets. His ex, her husband, their three y/o girl, her older son and a neighbor ....all died horrible deaths.
The fringe are the "sovereign citizen" types who think they can fight the government with their macho guns. This is delusional thinking, that the government is coming for you. I understand about shooting rats and raccoons , but not little children. This is playing over and over and over. Something drastic needs to be done.
1Observer2
Level 5
Feb 16, 2018
2
Quite the leap between pests and children you made there. Care to supply evidence to support your position? Here are the facts about guns in the us. [gunowners.org]
As an outsider, I see that Americans have an obsession with guns, and the right to have guns, in Oz most are obsessed with sport, beer coal and what ever America is doing. None of the arguments against gun control add up, Americans have so many gun deaths because they have so many guns.
I can kill someone easily without guns, I can kill many people easily with out guns, I can defend myself easily without guns. I have been at both ends of guns and one end is terrifying. Any person can get the flu, any person can become mentally ill.
Rugglesby
Level 8
Feb 17, 2018
1
I live in Canada know one is coming to take our guns here, we have sane rational gun laws where you need a license to own guns and if you don't already own one but want to purchase one you need to take a course to get a license. The level of license you need increases with the potential danger of the weapon as does the requirements to get one, Automatic weapons and assault weapons are banned if you don't have a collector license. I doubt that the majority of American gun owners like you would have any trouble complying with our laws and I strongly suspect they would greatly reduce gun violence.
HeathenFarmer
Level 8
Feb 17, 2018
1
All that is needed is some sensible gun laws. Comprehensive universal background check. No one need a 20 to 30 round magazine. No one need an Assault weapon. Reinstate the law that keeps mentally ill individuals from being able to purchase guns. If you are on the terrorist no fly watch list, you should not be able to buy a gun.
noworry28
Level 8
Feb 16, 2018
1
Guns. The conflict is rights versus lives. I support gun ownership and not succumbing to gun violence, both. Some compromise has to be met. All or nothing does not work for either side. I don’t pretend to have the answers, but I know how humans are. Each extreme viewpoint does not work. Maybe the answer is more regulation coupled with spending more on security. Why are at-risk domestic terrorists easily acquiring weaponry? Why do schools (obviously high level targets) not have guarded entry gates and patrols? Yeah it’s a sad world, but the options that seem to be the popular talking points are not going to work.
NothinnXpreVails
Level 8
Feb 16, 2018
0
Too bad that power corrupts and all... @icolan
I had someone explain it to me this way, this is not necessarily my opinion, but how it was explained to me. The reason the constitution gives us the rights for guns is so we can take up arms against the government if they get like England and the monarchy again or try to go towards a dictatorship. So we can defend ourselves against the government.
geeky1965
Level 6
Feb 16, 2018
1
There is no way. Warfare is to advanced for rifles alone to contest. The government has drones, planes, artillery and tanks - they can kill from miles and miles away. The real reason is money. They make a lot of money selling guns and ammo.
Varn:
I’ve heard that, too. We haven’t a Monarchy, and the Government’s us. The government is how we represent, regulate and present ourselves to the world. If our representatives amended the constitution to clarify the second amendment, that wouldn’t be the work of some invisible entity - it would the the will of the people of the United States of America asserting their right and obligation further our collective welfare. And if our resident gun nuts didn’t agree … we’ve the best armed militia in the world to deal with them ~ [ edited to 'second' amendment ]
@jeffy That's why the framers intended for the population to have the same technology in self defense as the government. Having said that, don't be so sure. Our military will not take up arms against their own. If a government overthrow were to take place, the military would be split, but a majority would be fighting with their neighbors, not against them.
You own as many guns as I do... and I make them. Just saying.
jayneonacobb
Level 7
Feb 16, 2018
0
Even if we ban guns, not only will people get them regardless, but guns are made by humans, and as long as someone knows how to make them, there is no way to get rid of them. Bombs are far deadlier than guns, far easier to make, and easy to get away with, how about we ban bombs? Lol
Funandfondles
Level 6
Feb 16, 2018
0
I don’t own a gun, I don’t need one, and I don’t intend to help an uprising to take over the government. There are already so many gun control laws, and no one seems to know them, not to say we should not fix loopholes or add additional conditions. I’m just stating what should be obvious, taking more guns out of the U.S. would just cause a new wave of bombers. I’ll admit that lowering the number of guns available may decrease the number of shootings from simple minded fools, but bombs are more effective at terrorism. Guns are not the reason people die, it’s the feeling of superiority guns give to people with mental health issues (as said By @Varn ) that’s the issue, and if guns disappear, they will find something else to give them power.
Enjoy being online again!
Welcome to the community of good people who base their values on evidence and appreciate civil discourse - the social network you will enjoy.Create your free account
Share this post
Categories
Agnostic does not evaluate or guarantee the accuracy of any content. Read full disclaimer.