@VictoriaNotes And the recent meeting between the Pope and the leader of the Mormon (I won't use the lengthened version) addressed the problem of their lowering members due to the secularization of the western world. Maybe if they would stop molesting children and subjugating women they might not be in such dire straits. Anything I can do to speed up this process, I will.

@VictoriaNotes "...the United States is secularizing in the same way as comparable countries. We are convinced by the steep downward trend in average religiousness noted by Voasand Chaves (2016). Clearly, America appears to be secularizing. ." I will assume that those "liberal" churches (I know and was once a part of a couple) are not becoming more extreme but are, perhaps, one driving force of the surge in secularization in this country. I would also think that instead of the US as a whole I would think some regions (like yours) are becoming more extreme and some areas (like mine) are becoming less so. As some areas become more secure in income and social benefits they will continue to become more secular and visa versa. Groups like the Humanist and FFRF are doing a lot to change the religious geography. Also, one sect, the Catholic Church, is in decline in the US. Unfortunately, the present politics are trying to change things but that, too is shifting.

I don't know (or remember) if you saw my comments on the talks we had this weekend from a former Mormon professor. He quit the church and gave up on a tenure route and had to start all over. He teaches at WSU (Ellensburg riverotter11 turf) and was very open about his atheism. He talked on civility and ethics (exactly what admin sent recently - I gave him a copy of the rules).

@VictoriaNotes It's not about overly optimistic (you know me better by now). Secularism is gaining ground especially among millennial's. We do have a long battle and I am willing and am able to be a part of it. I wonder how many of these religious people are coming from other states or other countries. Most of S. America is religious and with all the disasters in the mid-west and East I am sure many are fleeing to more stable places. Last I looked, California is still mostly a blue state and one of the leaders for environmental action. The recent uptake in measles has prompted many states to seriously look at dropping the religious exemption for not getting vaccinated including Wash.

One thing I promote is publishing the black collar crime. I send the link whenever I get a chance. People need to know their kids are at risk from clergy in all denominations.

@VictoriaNotes I love your insights! Always keep them coming! Never apologize. And yes, the emotional abuse relgion teachers is horrific.

@VictoriaNotes This chain has started my head to spin and I have come up with some thoughts which include examples. I don't want to beat the proverbial dead horse but I don't think the horse is actually dead. If you want my ideas let me know.

@VictoriaNotes Thank you, this will give me time to organize my thoughts and check a few facts. Believe it or not this often helps me formulate ideas.

Very true! I think we teach a fake love. What I was taught about love just doesnt seem real anymore.

@Jama765 I don't think you can be taught what love is. Some things must be experienced.

I had a conversation with my son Monday. The night before his son was born. I told him, "I won't try to describe what you're about to experience. I really wouldn't know how, but you'll understand soon." After the baby was born, I know what he felt and that his whole world changed, but words can't express it.

@JimG absolutely! The love I have for my children is different than any other love I have experienced. Congratulations on the birth of your grandchild!

@Jama765 Thank you.

Thank you! Very intriuqing post.

That is what I'm struggling with. I am a giver, but the most important adult in my life is a taker. It is draining, but shouldnt I continue to give if my love is genuine?