"Einstein and Hawking: Unlocking The Universe" produced by the BBC for the Science Channel.
i watched this last night, these guys should have been science fiction writers. They both produced silly theories that many accept as true. neither understood the true nature of time and space.
the truth about the universe is that time and space are infinite - there was no beginning of time - and there is no end of space.
time is a constant, it does not slow or stop.
space extends forever and it does not expand or bend.
there is so much misconception in the scientific community that as a human - it embarrasses me.
3
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25 comments
Feel free to reply to any comment by clicking the "Reply" button.Wow. Just wow. There's so much wrong with this... brain fart that I don't know where to start.
Did you know that without allowing for Einsteinian time dilation, satnav becomes wildly inaccurate within hours?
These guys didn't just pluck these ideas out of the sky. They are the most accurate theoretical descriptions of the evidence that they could come up with at the time.
MrBeelzeebubbles
Level 7
Mar 11, 2019
6
time dilation is not time
@gater you genuinely don't know what you're talking about.
Those are some nice assertions. Look, I can assert things too. Space is shrinking. Time is two dimensional. Cats love water.
indirect76
Level 7
Mar 11, 2019
5
I mean, I personally don't disagree with you that there was no beginning and that space is infinite.. but you offer no explanation or argument to back up your claim other than a dickhead-ish tantrum. You need to form a logical argument. I have one for an infinite universe that basically revolves around it being the theory with the least assumptions. That's really all we can do because we are limited in the amount of the universe we can observe.
I disagree that space isn't expanding. We know it is based on how galaxies are appearing to move away from us. The further they are, the faster they're moving away from us. If their observed movement were simply due to momentum, redshift wouldn't increase exponentially with distance.
Also disagree about time. Space and time are linked.. and we know that moving through space at different velocities changes how time effects you. If you took 2 atomic clocks and put on at the lowest point possible on Earth and the other at the highest point, over the years the time they kept would change from one another.
Bottom line, don't be a science denier just because you want to be.. and if you can't help yourself, at least provide an argument backing up your claims.
FatherOfNyx
Level 7
Mar 11, 2019
4
You’re response is moronic because ‘effect’ is a noun, not a verb.
Naw, that was a brilliant response.
@indirect76 We can't all be Stephen fucking Hawkinsons..
@FatherOfNyx hey, i want to be nikola fucking tesla!
the path to understanding comes from logic
@gater And observation.. You seem to disregard observations made in light of your theory.
@FatherOfNyx how do you apply observation to time?
@gater As I stated earlier, atomic clocks are one way. You can observe differences in atomic clocks that were once synced. Those differences come from the differences in the rate which they travel through space.
@FatherOfNyx you bring up clocks - clocks are not time - they are just an attempt to measure time.
@gater They're not attempting, they are. The measurement of time is like language. When we look at a tree, we see a tree. When a German looks at it, they see a baum. When a Swede looks at it, they see a träd. All different words for the same thing. It's the same with time. We base our time off of the movements of our planet, our moon, our view of the solar system. If we lived and evolved on Mars, our measurements would be different as they are based on different celestial movements.. but it would be describing the same thing, the passage of time. If Martians were to perform the atomic clock experiment, they would have different measurements that show the same results.
It's pretty silly to say that you can't measure or observe time while making the claim that it's infinite. I mean really, does that not sound fucking stupid? Time is infinite, but you can't observe or measure it.. kind of makes it hard to prove it's infinite.
If you don't want this forum to reject you just so you can whine about it, put some effort into your claims. All you're doing is spouting a philosophical stance with no evidence.. or even a damn logical argument. That's pretty much what theists do.
@Piece2YourPuzzle. It's not just objects moving. At the very edge of our observable universe, galaxies are moving away from us at near light speed. They aren't actually traveling at near light speed, if they were, they would disintegrate.
Another piece to your puzzle, if we see a galaxy moving away from us at near light speed, that means when they look at us, our galaxy is moving away from them at near light speed. Obviously we know our galaxy isn't traveling at near light speed. The only way to get this effect is if the space between galaxies is expanding.
Space isn't expanding. The objects in space are moving. The universe is a container like a soup is contained within a pot with all the ingredients moving around in the pot. The universe is just most likely an "infinite" "pot". The moving objects leave proof that they are moving (redshift measurements), not that the pot is expanding. To say the container is expanding is to say you see the entire container and can measure it expanding. We can only observe what we can observe and we don't see the entire universe. As far as we know, the "entire" universe is only that which we see.
@FatherOfNyx Nothing you said leads to any sense of the theory of space actually expanding. The DISTANCE between galaxies is expanding.
@Piece2YourPuzzle And what encompasses the distance between galaxies? Space. You can say the distance between galaxies, the area between galaxies, the region between galaxies, the realm between galaxies.. but in the end, it's still space. If you could view the fabric of space like a sea of virtual particles, those particles aren't literally expanding.. but the amount between galaxies is increasing, causing expansion.
Yep, and guess what. The world is flat and only six thousand years old, and he sun goes across the sky in a small boat each day and spends the night in a cave.
It may well be that the ideas of Einstein and Hawkins will need to be corrected in the future, that is the way both science and human progress work, but it is unlikely now that they will be turned over completely and they will never be valueless. And to answer one of your questions with one piece of evidence. (Only one because I do not have the time to waste on all of them , not because they can't be answered. )
The reason we know that space bends is because. When objects like planets pass behind other large objects with big gravity, the apparent speed of them can be observed to slow down and speed up as they go in and out of transit. If you wish to obtain your own instruments and make the measurements again, you are welcome. Until then it is best to remember that. "I can't understand it." Is not the same as. Its not true.
Fernapple
Level 9
Mar 13, 2019
2
Important to remember your words :"I can't understand it" is not necessarily TRUTH. Example: when I ask a question a sales clerk can't answer, I tell them "It's OK if you don't know" ! I wish folks would stop thinking they have to answer questions for which they don't have knowledge. Krueger/Dunning, or social pressure ??!
Space and time are closely related, and their combination is called space-time. Time is relative as is space, though time relativity is a very tiny effect in ordinary circumstances. Space-time is also curved, and that curvature is apparent as gravity. Time relativity makes GPS clocks a bit slower than ground ones, and gravity makes GPS clocks a bit faster, though not as big as the time-relativity effect. So GPS clocks are run a tiny bit fast to stay in sync with their observers' clocks.
Source:
lpetrich
Level 5
Mar 11, 2019
3
there is no spacetime - there is space, and there is time.
Why do you think that space and time are infinite?
Our observations are over only a finite amount of both space and time. The observable part of our Universe has approximately flat space, meaning that we have no hint of a boundary or an antipode. Time, however, is another story. The oldest nontrivial effect that we observe is primordial density fluctuations, and those were likely generated in a phase of "inflation" or exponential expansion some 13.7 billion years. It had a timescale of around 10^(-36) seconds and to produce the observed flattening, it needed some 60 e-foldings. So our Universe had some sort of beginning.
lpetrich
Level 5
Mar 11, 2019
2
So cool that you are a better scientist than Einstein and Hawking. Where do you have your academic appointment? Where do you publish?
Stephanie99
Level 8
Mar 13, 2019
2
Im not a scientist - im a philosopher.
@TheAstroChuck Right - I deal with truth - you deal with theories.
@gater The question still applies. Philosophers also publish and have academic appointments when they are recognized as legitimate.
@Stephanie99 Philosophers have the highest level of understanding. I posted the truth about time and space - the BBT is a ridiculous joke - they think time can stop - it can't - they think space isn't infinite - it is.
@gater Just because you say so?
@Stephanie99 no - because its true.
"Silly theories"???
So you, with your intuition and common sense, and perhaps some YouTube videos, have disproved Einstein's theories. Congratulations.
OldWiseAss
Level 7
Mar 13, 2019
1
Krueger/Dunning at work ?
Einstein and Hawking both had theories that should be categorized as science fiction.
The only time I have ever seen the word, "silly" used is as a derogatory term. I would not characterize either Einstein or Hawking as "silly". If you disagree with their theories, perhaps you should say, "I disagree with their theories in the matter of..."
dahermit
Level 7
Mar 12, 2019
1
Where is this trend coming from? Did I just miss it before? Is this just a part of agnostic I've (thankfully) missed?
People making basic assertions and disparaging great minds because they think it makes them look profound? I mean, just look at this Youtube video! Complete with more basic assertions pronounced like a Confucian monk passing on the mystic arts in the comments:
You learn about time from clocks, and about ants with a magnifying glass.
PLEASE LISTEN TO THE FOLLOWING:
You have nothing to prove here. We do not measure IQ points. You don't get Agnostic karma from trying to look like the smartest atheist. If you get to Level 8, you can get a T-shirt. However, you can do that just by commenting "lol" on a lot of posts, probably.
These types of posts aren't making you look like a genius science-man with a big ol' brain. They make you look like someone who thinks they're smarter than they really are.
Xuande
Level 7
Mar 12, 2019
2
you learn about time from clocks??? lol wrong
Let me get this straight, you watched a two hour documentary and discovered, hitherto unknown, flaws by two of the top scientists of the last century. My you are some genius, I wish I had that kind of insight, if I did I would be putting it to good use and not on here making rash statements that makes one look stoopid.
GothRik
Level 7
Mar 11, 2019
2
no - ive known for years that time and space are infinite.
Wow! Excellent "points generating" post!!!!
I salute you! 
bigpawbullets
Level 9
Mar 13, 2019
1
lol thanks 
Einstein’s theoeries made prediction that we’re later proven true by experiments. Relativistic effects have to be taken into account for the calculations used to maneuver space probes that have been sent out across our solar system. An atomic clock on the ground compared with the same type of clock that travels around the globe on a jet then is returned to the same earthbound location as the ground click shows a difference in time. What is your explanation?
jmac63
Level 4
Mar 12, 2019
1
Read "A brief History of Time" It puts much of what you eschew in layman's terms. Einstein's original brilliant deduction on space/time (E=MC2) changed physics and the world we live in. Hawking expanded our understand of the relationship of building blocks of the universe. Both made errors, Einstein didn't like quantum mechanics and Hawking made early mathematical errors, most he corrected himself.
clarkatticus
Level 7
Mar 11, 2019
0
the Big Bang Theory is flawed and inaccurate.
Having read the entire thread, I have come to the conclusions that, a), you’re insane, and, b), you’re insane.
KevinTwining
Level 7
Mar 13, 2019
1
Even Athiests and Agnostics can have irrational beliefs like infinite or that Time is real.
Biosteelman
Level 7
Mar 12, 2019
0
Are you saying there is nothing that is infinite? Cause pi would beg to differ.
@Bobby9 Pi has been proven to be an infinite number. Well, proven to the best of our ability. Even if we calculate it to the trillion trillion billion trillion million decimal place, anyone can say "well that doesn't prove that it doesn't end beyond that". At that point, it's just willful ignorance.
@Bobby9 I was responding to his implication that there is no such thing as infinite. It's impossible to prove the universe is infinite, or even finite for that matter. Have to rely on logic at that point.
@FatherOfNyx PI is an irrational number and finite as it is definitely smaller than 22/7.
@Biosteelman It's an infinite decimal.. There's no way to twist it to make yourself right, the digits go on forever.
@FatherOfNyx
PI is the mathematical expression of a circles corner. In other words the same place infinity exists your imagination.
@Biosteelman Mankind didn't invent or imagine math, we discovered it. It's values to describe reality. We can keep going round n round so you can keep trying to not be wrong, but the rest of the world knows that pi is an infinite number. Whether you want to cop out and say it's simply your imagination or not, it's still infinite. While the term pi might not continue, it will exist long after humanity is gone. Any intelligent species in this universe that discovers math will discover pi.
@FatherOfNyx You're wrong on so many levels it's just amazing.
But you're right if an intelligent species decides to use base 10 to describe the corner of a circle they will find it never has a definitive corner. Which isn't the same thing as infinite but I guess in this day in age where nuance is gone it's the same.
@Bobby9 Like I said, it can't be proven. There's an observational limit to the universe.. and even if we could travel at light speed, everything beyond the observational limit is expanding away from us faster than the speed of light. Even if we could instantly warp to any distance, no matter how far we go, no matter if we see an end, anyone can deny it and say that you can't prove that there is or isn't anything beyond. Granted at some point, most reasonable people will accept the evidence of what they're seeing, anyone can reject it in light of the possibility of what's beyond.
@Bobby9 Kind of sucks really, but that's the nature of the universe. All we can do is try to form a logical argument. For me, I apply Occam's razor and come to the conclusion that it's infinite. That ends up being the theory with the least assumptions.
@gater -- You have not presented a theory. You have made a posit. Show your work.
evidentialist
Level 8
Mar 12, 2019
0
theories are necessary when you're not sure of something - like the Big Bang Theory, or Special Theory of Relativity. I am sure time and space are infinite.
@gater If you are sure, then you should at least be able to explain it. That's what a scientific theory is, it's a model of explanation. All you're doing is making claims with no explanation. Come on man, if you're able to put this much effort in.. take it one step more and actually explain yourself. That's why you're getting so much push back, you're not doing shit other than making claims. Claims with no explanation are empty.
@FatherOfNyx alright that's fair, but its kind of like taking a test and you have the right answer but the teacher won't accept it because you didn't show your work. I wish I had the words to make it clear for everyone.
@gater -- No, it's not like taking a test, having the right answer, but being marked down because you didn't show your work. It is apparent you don't truly understand what the word theory means when used in science. What you have done here is more like this:
A young man was working away in the patent office one day when a brilliant idea popped into his brain. Immediately he raced out into the street shouting the German equivalent of eureka.
A policeman, upon seeing the wild-eyed young lad accosting people at random, stopped him and said, "Young man, why are you running about and shouting at the townspeople?"
"Because I've found it."
"Found what?"
"Space-time. It's ... it's a continuum, you see? Light is constant and time and space must comply with local acceleration."
"What on earth are you babbling about? Explain yourself."
"Well ... damn it man ... it's logic. Don't you see it? We've missed it all these years. All those great men of science haven't seen it and it was dangling there in plain sight for all to see."
"No, I don't see it, nor shall I see it until you explain yourself. What I can tell you is this, if you continue bothering people, I shall be forced to take you in until you calm down. I hear there is a man in Vienna who might be able to help you. I believe his name is Sigmund ... uh ... Sigmund Freud."
"Bah! That blathering baboon wouldn't -- couldn't understand. He doesn't see it either. Why are all of you so ... so dense?"
''''''''''''''''''''''''''
A theory describes a phenomenon, describes it thoroughly, and shows all the work used in the process. If a theory works, it can make predictions based on the description presented therein about future effects of a given phenomenon.
@gater -- And you, Sir, have given no evidence or explanation for your posit. You have made the assertion, now provide the support for the assertion.
This is just about what i expected from this group - infinite time and space is an abstract concept that is absolutely true. to understand this you 1st must understand the true nature of time and space.
this is where the scientific community fails.
gater
Level 7
Mar 11, 2019
0
The Creation is to Evolution, as the Big Bang Theory is to the Infinite Universe. The 1st is an attempt at truth, the 2nd is the truth.
gater
Level 7
Mar 19, 2019
0
@TheAstroChuck no, again you are wrong. The Creation was an early attempt to explain our existence, Evolution came much later and is true. Just as the BBT was an early attempt to explain the Universe, but now we know the Universe is infinite, and the BBT is wrong.
to clarify, there are only 3 things in the universe - time, space, and matter - of course matter can take many forms. time does not slow or stop, it moves at a constant rate, and it always has - there was no beginning of time. space continues forever, because that is the nature of space.
time and space are independent - time has no effect on space, and space has no effect on time.
gater
Level 7
Mar 13, 2019
0
disagree with your over simplified explanation ! There is much more unknown than known !
@JackNewman When you discover something that isn't time space or matter - let me know about it.
How do you know this? Did it come to you in a dream? Who else knows this?
Jay1313132018
Level 7
Mar 12, 2019
0
I analyzed all the data available to me, and I constructed an accurate model of the Universe. anyone that thinks space expands or bends does understand what space is.
@gater I think that you're trying to "pull everyone's leg". Good one.
@Jay1313132018 lol no - im trying to share what I know is true. I was raised a Christian, it took years of analysis to understand that evolution is true. since then I learned that everything needs to be questioned and analyzed. In a college physics course the professor tried to teach something that was mathematically impossible, I called him on it and proved he was wrong. question everything - don't accept the BBT - its wrong.
@gater your arguments are "religious like". You're expecting others to believe you on "faith". You offer no rational, let alone scientific, justification other than "I've figured it out. Take my word for it". Maybe, you've not quite outgrown religion.
@Jay1313132018 maybe everything I said is true but you lack the ability to comprehend infinite concepts - isn't that a possibility?
@gater Now, you're trying the "I'm rubber you're glue defence". How funny and a little sad.
@Jay1313132018 no - im asking you if you believe theres a possibility that im right.
@gater you haven't provided enough (any) detail in order to access your proposition.
At first, I really thought you were trying to "pull our leg" by arguing about space-time in a similar way that a religious person might argue about the existence of God. You argue that it's true because you have special knowledge that is apparently beyond explanation and that we should believe you on your word. Also, that one day everyone will know it and it's best that we jump on board now.
Now, from what you've posted it seems that you do not have any higher level training, either informal or formal, in science. Therefore, it's difficult to have a meaningful conversation, on this topic, with you. I don't say this to disparage you. I'm trying to explain why, in my opinion, are getting such push back on this post.
Enjoy being online again!
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