Challenging the view of science as a religion
I have angered a few theists in the past. Face-to-face, mostly during break room discussions with coworkers. I have never instigated these discussions. They begin when I'm talked to about god or asked what I believe in. What seems to crop up during the discussion is this view of science as a competing religious belief and it annoys me. I consider this a failure of our education system and of society as a whole.
A good example is when a Theist retorts 'Well, you believe in evolution!'. I have arrived at what is basically a stock series of statements. Although I have to admit the language I use in places is a lot more colourful, depending on how heated the discussion gets.
I submit these as theists I have had this discussion with go off on a tangent about faith and god after this. On one occasion, the guy got up, left the room and we never mentioned religion ever again.
As gratifying as that may sound, this does nothing to strengthen my argument. I have no desire to assert from this that my argument is without weaknesses - I just haven't been shown where I may be wrong. My arguments need to be challenged rationally and I am currently not getting that from the opposing position of theists.
So I now turn to the atheists / agnostics who will hopefully be able to help find fallacies in my arguments. I don't consider myself a great critical thinker. I DO consider myself someone who doesn't shy away from a worthwhile argument. Any thoughts you may have on the below to challenge my way of thinking would be most appreciated.
Thank you.
Responding to the statement "You believe in Evolution".
"If you think that I 'believe' in evolution then we are wasting our time having this discussion."
"Science critically examines the world around us and attempts to reach conclusions independent of bias. To 'believe' implies a position of faith. Faith implies a position of bias. This implies that faith should not be involved with science."
"Regarding evolution, I do not simply 'believe' in conclusions obtained objectively that have been validated repeatedly over a period of 160 years. I am not aware of any reasonable counterargument remaining with supporting evidence that suggests otherwise. Therefore, I am okay with accepting the principle of evolution as fact."
"I am also open to the idea that it may be wrong. As long as any conflicting argument has compelling evidence obtained scientifically. Please do not confuse scientific method with belief. It should be clear at this point that I find your implication insulting."
"On the other hand, If I state that you 'believe' in Creationism. that statement is justified. You have nothing scientifically leading to a conclusion to show me that it is anything but a belief. Science is not an alternative, magical belief system and I implore you to stop treating it as such."
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4 comments
Feel free to reply to any comment by clicking the "Reply" button.Your arguments are pretty good. I don't personally like qualifying evolution as potentially wrong. Given that the ability to know all the intimate factors in a habitat or species, evolution isn't wrong. Instead our reading of the significance of which factors had greater influence over others may be errant. The principles aren't incorrect, just our take on which to prioritize over one another.
t1nick
Level 8
Apr 16, 2019
1
Quite right. I think there is more chance of my missus giving birth to a unicorn than the core principles behind the theory of evolution being wrong. 
It was a more of an attempt to loosely explain how scientific method works. I should elaborate as the statement can lead to an angle for a counterargument out of desperation. It has not happened yet, but looking at the statement I am surprised that it hasn't. Good catch.
I don't think belief implies religious faith.
There are reasonable beliefs based on preponderance of evidence; there are unreasonable beliefs based on wishful thinking and arguments from authority; there are default beliefs based on (possibly total) lack of evidence. Beliefs can be justified and substantiated, or not.
So to me it's not a question of belief but of evidence. Evidence your beliefs, and I'll share them.
This equating of the proven and settled explanatory framework (scientific theory) known as evolution with the entirely baseless creation myth is indeed vexing. But it is a problem of evidence (and, indeed, of even being capable of being evidenced).
mordant
Level 8
Apr 16, 2019
0
It depends on the preceding discussion. Sometimes it's obvious what they mean by believe based on preceding dialogue, unless they don't even know what they mean by it. Admittedly 'believe' has synonyms which can point in either direction.
Most of these conversations happened in Norwegian where there is a clearer distinction. But I make you right; As far as the English Language is concerned, they should get one opportunity and one opportunity only to clarify.
Many religious people do not “believe” in creationism. They are aware of the fact that the concept of creation is a shallow human mental construct and that the nature of ultimate reality is far, far over our heads.
Deeply religious people don’t believe anything—they are just in awe. Arguing about God is a futile, immature activity, founded on ignorance and ego.
WilliamFleming
Level 8
Apr 16, 2019
0
I didn't mean to tar all Theists with one brush, but the people in the workplace I mentioned were Creationists.
@Xoviat Yes, I understand. There are many people like that.
Unfortunately, they're also leaders amongst their flock and still very much Fundamentalists. 
@Xoviat it is unfortunate that you have to deal with people like that in your workplace. I’ve never experienced that sort of thing on the job. There was one fundamentalist guy but he was tactful and likable and we were friends.
Sounds like you are dealing with the challenge in a forthright and courageous way.
@WilliamFleming Oh they were really nice people - Until you challenged something they didn't agree with. For example, I've seen one of the kindest, mild-mannered men you're ever likely to meet suddenly turn into a red-faced lunatic on the subject of homosexuality, screaming "It's not natural! The bible forbids it!" in what was a perfectly calm discussion with another coworker.
@WilliamFleming Also, I don't work there anymore and haven't for a while. I'm currently in the process of being registering disabled. I don't think that they're aware of it, otherwise they'd probably think of it as me being punished by god for my outrageous blasphemy
I’ve heard that too, “Well, you believe in evolution!” ..and tell them, ‘I understand the process of evolution, do you?’
The tangents I notice become various ‘biblical references,’ ending with ‘proof’ being what they’ve derived from their convoluted, multi-interpreted ‘book.’ I’ll point out, as they’ve limited themselves to one book - freethinkers maintain Libraries!
...I also find ‘big words’ and complicated sentences lose them fast.. Keep it simple.
“Please do not confuse scientific method with belief. It should be clear at this point that I find your implication insulting."” - I like that! ...though you’d lose a significant number of them at implication 
I like to remind them that ‘providing proof’ is their responsibility, not mine. Religion is not logical, it’s reactionary; the manifestation of desire (life everlasting) and primitive assumptions attempting to explain natural phenomena. It’s outdated and irrelevant.
Never feel compelled to match their intensity, that alone leaves them looking desperate. In this day & age there are enough verifiable facts conflicting with their desired fantasies to become apparent they’ve chosen to ‘believe,’ going with familiarity or desire..
Usually, they’re deeply troubled in some way. Often I’ll simply allow that to emerge with time … as we continue living healthy, admirable lives ~
Varn
Level 8
Apr 16, 2019
1
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