Rather than refer you to my post below, I will simply paste it here and save you the trouble . . . . . Capitalism allows people to amass wealth far beyond that of other human beings, and far beyond the needs of a single person in a lifetime . . . which places more and more power in the hands of these wealthy individuals, who, as a result of their increase in power over others, become more and more separated from their fellow human beings, and begin to enslave their fellow human beings, and, worst of all, eventually begin to believe that they are superior to their fellow human beings, start to dehumanize their fellow human beings, warring upon them, or sending them off to fight in wars were they absolutely would never risk their own lives in, wars to aggrandize themselves ever more causing widespread suffering and death of their fellow human beings. These people begin to think that they are elite, special, kings or queens, chosen by "god" . . . . above the laws of nature even. They believe that they are "chosen", they begin to believe that they are above all norms of decency, because "god" has told them that they are on some sacred mission to bring the world over to him at whatever cost it takes, so that they can rule the world without opposition, that the masses are meant to serve them, and if world war comes, it will be a "holy war", and while they pretend to be the protector of the masses, they are actually the exploiters, destroyers of, not only the masses, but the environment, and they become a threat to the very lifeblood of the earth, leading it on to a path of irreversible doom.
.
Meanwhile, those who are not in the upper echelons of society, as the power of those who are increases, the exploited begin to be more and more humiliated, dehumanized, and believe themselves to be powerless to change anything. They believe most readily what they want to believe . . . that god will help them if only they pray more, that their leaders have their best interests in mind, that if called to go fight somewhere, that there must be an enemy, and a good reason . . . . they become so humiliated and debased that they do not even bother to question why they are being sent to their deaths, why they are living in abject poverty, why they have no power whatsoever.
Capitalism brings out the very worst in man by introducing unfettered competition against one's own species, to the point of murderous competition, dehumanization, slavery, wars for profit, of aggrandizement, wholesale slaughter. . . . destruction of the world as a sustainer of life . . . in short, a reality that becomes a nightmare of annihilation, self-destruction.
.
The USA is doing its best to accelerate it . . . . Where exactly do you think this endless war is coming from? Since World War II, the USA has killed more than 20 million people, that averages out to roughly 282,000 per year, 23,474 per month, or 782 per day. The USA has been at war more than 90% of the time since 1776! The USA:
.
interfered in Iraq - there is a war there now.
interfered in Syria - there is a war there now.
interfered in Libya - there is a war there now.
interfered in Yemen - there is a war there now.
interfered in Ukraine - there is a war there now.
interfered in Somalia - there is a war there now.
interfered in Afghanistan - there is a war there now.
.
No pattern of behavior here at all, right? The pattern does show one thing, clearly, that those who have foresight can see, and that is that mankind is headed for extinction . . . . either by destroying the environment, or by nuclear self-destruction. Unfettered competition . . . . will be the end game for humans . . Elon Musk wants to go to Mars alright . . . . one thing I can say for him is he has foresight.

"decline of violence"
tell that to the palestinians who are once again being bombed. tell that to all the millions of ppl in the ME who were enjoying a good standard of living before they were attacked by the US & it's nato lackeys.

@callmedubious Violence is on the decline, not gone... obviously.

Oops I said Melissa Gates but her name is Melinda. Maybe nobody noticed. She was in the news this morning for her philanthropic work.

Psychological projection is common among those who are infected with the sickness of capitalist greed . . . . but you are welcome to believe what you want.

You do not know my background . . . . and that is the classic capitalist argument that is also a classic fail . . . . not everyone gets spoon fed capitalism and business by their parents, and some even have to worry about dealing with other issues long before worrying about something like profit or becoming an expert at exploiting other humans . . . . nor do they have the desire to do so.

I stand corrected on that one, and will correct it in the post, although I probably should have used length, it would probably get from here to the Moon . . . .

It’s the width if you hold the bill so the edge is facing you.

@indirect76 What is the dimension if it is coiled-up and shoved up one's butt? Ask'en for a friend.

As if that is any less valuable than paper money that is backed by.... nothing.

Maybe because about 30,000 people starve to death on this planet every single day? Or because about 700,000 Americans are forced to file bankruptcy every year due to medical bills? Or maybe becuase more than half of all Americans rely on the government, in some form or another, to make ends meet? Because it shocks the fucking conscience (well, at least for those who actually have one)?

Capitalism allows people to amass wealth far beyond that of other human beings, and far beyond the needs of a single person in a lifetime . . . which places more and more power in the hands of these wealthy individuals, who, as a result of their increase in power over others, become more and more separated from their fellow human beings, and begin to enslave their fellow human beings, and, worst of all, eventually begin to believe that they are superior to their fellow human beings, start to dehumanize their fellow human beings, warring upon them, or sending them off to fight in wars were they absolutely would never risk their own lives in, wars to aggrandize themselves ever more causing widespread suffering and death of their fellow human beings. These people begin to think that they are elite, special, kings or queens, chosen by "god" . . . . above the laws of nature even. They believe that they are "chosen", they begin to believe that they are above all norms of decency, because "god" has told them that they are on some sacred mission to bring the world over to him at whatever cost it takes, so that they can rule the world without opposition, that the masses are meant to serve them, and if world war comes, it will be a "holy war", and while they pretend to be the protector of the masses, they are actually the exploiters, destroyers of, not only the masses, but the environment, and they become a threat to the very lifeblood of the earth, leading it on to a path of irreversible doom.
.
Meanwhile, those who are not in the upper echelons of society, as the power of those who are increases, the exploited begin to be more and more humiliated, dehumanized, and believe themselves to be powerless to change anything. They believe most readily what they want to believe . . . that god will help them if only they pray more, that their leaders have their best interests in mind, that if called to go fight somewhere, that there must be an enemy, and a good reason . . . . they become so humiliated and debased that they do not even bother to question why they are being sent to their deaths, why they are living in abject poverty, why they have no power whatsoever.
Capitalism brings out the very worst in man by introducing unfettered competition against one's own species, to the point of murderous competition, dehumanization, slavery, wars for profit, of aggrandizement, wholesale slaughter. . . . destruction of the world as a sustainer of life . . . in short, a reality that becomes a nightmare of annihilation, self-destruction.

The USA is doing its best to accelerate it . . . . Where exactly do you think this endless war is coming from? Since World War II, the USA has killed more than 20 million people, that averages out to roughly 282,000 per year, 23,474 per month, or 782 per day. The USA has been at war more than 90% of the time since 1776! The USA:
.
interfered in Iraq - there is a war there now.
interfered in Syria - there is a war there now.
interfered in Libya - there is a war there now.
interfered in Yemen - there is a war there now.
interfered in Ukraine - there is a war there now.
interfered in Somalia - there is a war there now.
interfered in Afghanistan - there is a war there now.
.
No pattern of behavior here at all, right? The pattern does show one thing, clearly, that those who have foresight can see, and that is that mankind is headed for extinction . . . . either by destroying the environment, or by nuclear self-destruction. Unfettered competition . . . . will be the end game for humans . . Elon Musk wants to go to Mars alright . . . . one thing I can say for him is he has foresight.

@Piratefish Where is the logical connection between his acquisition of wealth and people who go without? After all, if the economy were stronger there would be more billionaires than there currently are, and as you rightly point out in your comment above most of his worth isn't liquid.

Pity proves nothing, in fact I would argue from a pragmatic stance that he shouldn't help them unless he can benefit in some way.

@Piratefish, @THHA Jeff bezos insists on not forcing religion, in fact we don't know which denomination if any he is. He might even be atheist or agnostic and just hiding behind a christian mask to avoid public outcry.

Wars existed long before modern capitalism was invented. This is also the most peaceful time in human history by far, possibly because of capitalism, which give individuals access to more resources than they could ever need and that discourages wars and encourages cooperation. There is a reason no two countries containing a Mcdonalds have ever been to war with each other- If their economies are integrated globally they have more to lose than they have to gain from conflict.

As far as the environment goes- the universe doesn't care about us. It is full of things that will destroy the human race for no reason whatsoever, and with us any chance that the universe can be filled with sentient life capable of appreciating the universe. We should change the environment to meet our needs, or ourselves to survive in the world. The resources and energy we use don't go away, they are concerned. Entropy is the only thing we have to worry about, and we would not exist in our current state without it.

@Piratefish The solution to hunger is to produce food. That has nothing to do with Bezos.

"This is also the most peaceful time in human history by far" . . . . . After that one, there is no point. Not sure what planet you are on, but it is not Earth!

@THHA Name another year in recorded human history for you to be randomly placed somewhere on earth's surface before the industrial revolution, for you to live until you died. Have you read any history? It's very violent! All over the world! The global standard of living has never been higher in human history! I'm not saying it's perfect, just that it used to be much worse.

Oh, so you have never bothered to read much about Ancient Egypt . . . While they did have periods of wars, there were also long extended periods of peace . . . and your point is mute, anyway because you a basing it on the good old sheltered American point of view. Just because you have not been effected by war, does not mean a thing. [cfr.org]

@THHA What makes you assume I haven't been affected by war?

Also, In my above analogy you don't get to chose where you live, only when. So, if you picked a time period in which egypt was at peace there is only a 0.0678% chance that you would end up in egypt. There wasn't a lot of civilization at that time else where in the world.

Disease has been the biggest taker of human lives in the past, and we have all but eliminated that as a source of human suffering.

More people die each year from natural causes (~58M ) as all killed directly from war in WWII including civilian casualties. ( ~52M ) numbers vary between sources, does not include deaths from disease during wartime.

Not quite accurate . . . [businessinsider.com]

@THHA To that I have one word: bacteriophages

Here we go into the weeds...

@THHA And yet , many of these people donate more than you'll ever earn in a life time , but some people never see that .

@Castles . . . . uuuhhhh that is kind of easy to do . . . . . don't you think? That is like saying that an elephant shits more than an aardvark . . . . obviously the elephant can outshit the aardvark . . . . no contest. In Roman times bread and circuses were popular too . . . .

@THHA Wait, so if you don't like capitalism, what economic system are you proposing? Bread and circus was primitive welfare, paid for by a slave economy.

Wow, never saw someone rush to the defense of such obnoxious greed, selfishness, and excess.

"Bread and circus was primitive welfare, paid for by a slave economy." If you think this is NOT a slave economy, you are mistaken . . . . in fact, it is even worse than a slave economy, it is a predatory economy . . . one only needs to look at America's overseas activity to see that! How many bombs have we dropped with no good reason whatsoever than to make a profit? How many people of other cultures have paid the price of living in a country that has resources that the US capitalist system wants? Or maybe I should say the price of DYING in a country that has resources the US capitalist system wants. Prisons for profit enslave people here in the USA, more people are homeless than ever before, and it is all peachy though . . . . fuck no! Humans are not capable of governing themselves in a reasonable manner, they have thousands of years of repeated failures as testimonial proof, and all of that proof makes it more than clear that they are going to wipe themselves off the planet. So in essance, it is already to late to propose some replacement for a system that has already fucked the world beyond the point of no return! Humans are not logical like computers, and they also wait for the last minute to try to correct problems, and that does not work well with nuclear weapons or a fucked up environment that is already way beyond the point of no return.
If I were to propose any kind of system, it would likely be some form of transhumanism because a major paradigm shift would be necessary, where logic becomes much more prevalent in the decisions of the transhumanistic beings who use artificial intelligence to shift all of society into a more reasonable and stable form of existence. Humans are driven by greed, fame, power, and ego, and that will be their downfall . . . . some of us can recognize that, some of us can't.

@THHA transhumanism isn't an economic system. I assume you mean technism, which is where jobs are made illegal and robots do all the work, there is a key difference there.
In technism there is no purpose, everyone gets the same, you are a pet to the state. No suffering, no advancement.

Edit: Why do you assume that AI systems wouldn't be greedy? They might decide to turn all humans into something more practical if it better suited it's purpose. To an AI, human values may not be considered at all.

IF transhumanism turned out to be "greedy" . . . . humans have already been determined to be . . . so you can make your bets . . . . I won't be betting on the humans.

@THHA Depends on the type of transhumanism, and again it isn't an economic system.

For example, turning everyone into digital copies through mind uploading would make it so that people only needed energy to survive, and that could make people much less resource intensive due to greater efficiency, and people could live much longer.

If you can upload minds though, why do you need planets when you can simulate them? Why not take them apart to build solar panels? You can have a lot more people that way. Is that the paradigm shift you desire?

When I was in college, a long time ago, I once had a discussion with a chemistry professor, and I told him, "Some day, we will have computers with enough storage to be able to store whole textbooks in the computer." At that, he scoffed, and said it could never happen. I remember it to this day . . . . So obviously he has had to eat his words. Underestimating Artificial intelligence is also something that seems to happen, especially among those who have not explored it to any extent.

@THHA Yeah, no kidding. AI represents the largest threat to human existence. In this century I believe we will see weapons that will make nukes look like fire crackers, and some of them are likely to be driven by AI, but I still support these projects because I know that the potential payout is incredible. You should read my bio if you haven't already.

Humans are the biggest threat to human existence. AI is second place, after all, even if were to I accept your argument, it is humans who create AI . . . . AI and logic should work as a moderating force, after all, any advanced computer consciousness would clearly see the stupidity of the current human path, which is pretty much up shit creek without a paddle. And if it does see fit to wipe humans off of the face of the earth, it would not be doing something that humans would not eventually doing themselves.

@THHA AI would not necessarily be conscious, even if super intelligent. I don't even think most would be capable of advanced thought or even have a subjective experience the way you and I understand it.

Take for instance an AI that controls traffic lights in a city for safety and optimal efficiency. It would need to have way more intelligence than a person, but it most likely couldn't even talk or think like us because it doesn't need to.

What happens if it predicts that a single car with a drunk driver is going to cause a major accident, and so it changes a stop light early to cause someone else to crash into him, thus preventing a larger accident?

That example gives a hard look at what reality looks like with machines in charge. The myth of the Hollywood style machine needs to be dispelled.

AI will acheive consciousness, at minimum, as part of transhumanism. My bet is that it will come sooner than most people expect. We are not working with a linear function when it comes to computers and inovation, more like a logorithmic function. They have already mapped the brains of some creatures, the jump up from that is not going to be so taxing.

@THHA My point id that machine experience will not be like human experience. There is this idea that computers will have to think like us and interact like us to do what they do, when in reality they will be more like autistic savants. Very few AI's will interact with humans on any meaningful level.

I'm not saying super intelligent AI can't be conscious, meaning aware of ones own self and making the distinction between itself and reality, in fact some AI experts claim to have identified this having already occurred in some machines set to interact with reality.

AI is dangerous specifically for that reason. It will only be concerned with whatever task it is built to do, and if that task involves eliminating human life or simply out competes it, our lives could be at risk because a computer could do everything a human does better than a human, so why should it keep us around if we are dead weight to it?

That is kind of a racist point of view, I say in a joking way . . . . but seriously . . . more progress is made by entities working together (John Nash) than competing separately . . . . and yes, there will be a huge difference, but that does not translate to annihilation of humans. In fact, if what you are saying is true, we would have deliberately annihilated dogs or blackbirds, simply because they are less intelligent. Even IF computers and humans cannot intertwine, it does not follow that computers will automatically decide to wipe out humans. I'm more convinced that humans will wipe out humans, they are well down the road on that.

@THHA Well, we did send a lot of species to extinction. Only the ones that were useful enough for us to keep around were spared, and most of them are fundamentally different than their ancestors. Dogs didn't exist in nature until we created them from wolves. Modern dairy cows produce far more milk than there ancestors, and beef cows produce more meat. Chickens grow at a much faster rate than the birds that exist in nature, in fact most domesticated animals can't survive in the wild due to genetic quirks, many of which we put there deliberately.

If we change like that, can you even call us human any more?

The problem is we don't know if we will be of any use to an advanced super intelligent general AI, So anything goes. Its fundamentally unpredictable so we should proceed in the most cautious ways.

I'll take my chances with the AI and transhumanism . . . . humans have thousands of years of history of fucking things up.

@THHA I'm not against AI, I'm just being critical of the potential outcomes and seek to mitigate risks so the future is awesome and not some despotic dystopian cesspool, Just jumping on the AI train is a good way to end up in humans are obsolete, lets just let them die land without proper controls.

The future is a charred and radioactive iceball that use to be inhabited, or a planet toasty hot with the water boiled off . . . depending on which problem catches up with us first.

The world and its whole population . . . . that is who. This is the result of blind inability to use foresight, for one thing. It is also not much different than the time when kings ruled the earth . . . and the serfs had little rights at all . . . . do you THINK your vote means anything? It does not mean shit, and neither does anyone else's. Capitalism will destroy the earth . . . there is the forsight . . . . and that is the harm. I do not see your hero Jeff Bezos doing anything of note to deal with any of these issues.

No one says it needs to be distributed.

Also, he doesn't actually have that much money. It's mostly stock options. If he ever tried to cash them in, he would get nothing even close to what he's worth on paper, and it would be a blow from which Amazon may not be able to recover.

Personally, I don't think he, or anyone else, should get that kind of compensation. He isn't curing cancer, ending world hunger, or eliminating poverty and disease. He hasn't found renewable, abundant, green energy. He hasn't ended warfare and starvation, or natural disasters. He has, however, exploited the fuck out of a lot of people for his own enrichment.

I also believe that the government is a far worse problem. Break out your last pay stub and see how much they are stealing from you (hint, it's way fucking more than Amazon). And then they turn around and waste our hard-earned money on things that do not even benefit the majority of Americans.

Both obnoxiously compensated CEOs and out-of-control government are scourges to the common person, but the government is worse. Much worse.

@THHA This pre-supposes that US style capitalism will triumph.
France, in 1788, was a bastion of unbridled capitalism, with an ultra wealthy elite and a mass of poverty stricken people, separated by a very small "middle class".
A year later there was a massive revolution, with death and destruction.
Unless the US puts greater controls on its capitalist elite, and instigates better social welfare, such as genuinely affordable or free minimum standards of health care for all, there is trouble ahead.

@Petter . . . . unfortunately, what most people do not see is that there will not be any second chances after the nuclear weapons start flying or the environment is completely fucked, (which it is, for all intents and purposes). No Capitalism will not "triumph", it will destroy itself and everyone else in the process. Humans are not proactive for the most part . . . . they wait for a major disaster before they change the way they do things, and that does not mix well with nuclear weapons or the environment.

@THHA I'm not talking nuclear war against other countries, I'm talking popular uprising, riot and civil war. That is the direction in which the US is heading. History is littered with examples of what happens when a small minority of rich people amass an excessive proportion of total national wealth.

I hope you are right, but the problem is that now, they do not use grapeshot, they have "crowd control", they have the military and in fact ARE the military, they have the police, they control the media nearly 100%, and use psychological warefare against the citizens . . . remember what happened with "Occupy Wall Street"? Unless citizens can convince the police and military (military will not convince, because it IS the government), it is a lost cause.

@Piratefish eff Bezos , isn't printing money . If the population wanted those good things to happen , they could spent that money to do those necessary things , instead of making Amazon richer .

@THHA ,
that standing army depends on the goomint for it's pay & pensions. they won't hesitate to mow down any groups that pose a threat to the status quo.
in fact many of them would relish the opportunity, psychos that they are.

I all agree, all humans have inherent worth, however your worth as a person is either enhanced or diminished by their actions.
When your inherent worth is negated by your negative actions to the point where your overall lack of value is impacting negatively on the world and other people then pragmatically it must conclude the world would be better off without you.

@LenHazell53 maybe so, but since any action by anyone might be seen as negative by some and positive by some others, it's not up to anyone to decide what your inherent worth is.

@Mofo1953 I would disagree, if you take the impact on the general well being of society, or indeed even the adherence to the laws of the society in question it is perfectly possible to, at least locally, apply a scale of measure for the purposes of determination of the current overall worth.
We do this now via the courts, when some one's worth is judged to be in the negative worth zone they are removed from society, either permanently or temporarily, for this purposes we have people called Judges.

@LenHazell53 the original comment I made was tailored to the original post about Bezos, then I referred to your assertion that "your overall lack of value is impacting negatively on the world and other people then pragmatically it must conclude the world would be better off without you". Now you change your point to introduce legality, judges and temporary removal of society, which is diametrically opposed to beingvremoved from this world. If one wants to defend a p.o.v. it must remain as your original p.o.v. and not change it according to where thevwind bliws to make your point, don't you think?