Long ago. He hasn't changed, but I did not expect him to. I just wanted him to know what I think.

I did not single them out, but cited them as an example. Communism is a total system ideology which purports to include and explain everything. It also calls for a "dictatorship of the proletariat" by an ideological purist elite of true believers. That makes it a movement which totalitarian and which never relinquishes power voluntarily. That makes it one of the most destructive ideologies in human history.

@wordywalt Imperialism, mainly catholic imperialism, was pretty effective in decimating almost the entire population of what we now refer to as Latin America.
You jump from Russian communism to the "most destructive ideology in human history" …Are you sure that you are not singling out communism?
Do you know of many regimes that relinquished power voluntarily?

@PontifexMarximus I would recommend that you read Milovan Djilas's THE NEW CLASS.

Please tell me what point you are trying to make. I will readily address it.

@wordywalt I was just thinking of rewriting it. "Groups" have control over the decision making process. We loose ours.

@PondartIncbendog I believe that we are all responsible for the decisions we make as individuals and for their consequences. However, we, as humans, are social creatures, and to create the things and standards we want, we must act in groups. What I object to is both the individual and the group giving away its freedom of choice and action by adhering to a dogmatic and false total system ideology.

Yes. And we are seeing that already.

Part of the problem is that most of them play to win, by almost any means, forget conscience or ethics, etc.... We liberals I think tend to be more conscientious to the point of always wanting to play fair, which seems to mean we sometimes lose. It's frustrating.

@bingst that is how i see it, too!

He has a PhD. He was much more objective in earlier years, but in his old age, and in a totally reactionary and racist community, he has regressed.

@wordywalt ,
in his old age he no longer bothers to hide what he always was.

@wordywalt you don't have to be brilliant to have a PhD, you have to have an aptitude in one subject AND you need someone in a position to sponsor you. (I lack the second). Your friend appears to have aptitude in something other than thinking.

We must try to be open minded.

Because they try to rule us. Our laws, our communities, our lives.

@PondartIncbendog I guess I have grown rather unattached to this life really. I don't think this is our ultimate form and I believe as consciousness we'll be eternal. so let them bicker over this pile of rubble they keep f*cking up anyway.

I was in Berlin before and after the Wall went up. The East German government was a puppet regime installed by the Russians and kept in place by between 200,000 and 300,000 Russian troops stationed in East Germany. In 1962. You would not believe how repressive the atmosphere was. The streets were crawling with Vopo (border politic), Vopos (state police), and Russian solders armed with submachine guns. Where were few people on the streets. No one Smiled. There was no conversation in public. It was the result of extreme total ideology.

@wordywalt I can well believe you. One big thing that they could not stop was music. My friend learnt English off Beatles records, (Hence she now lives in Liverpool). Although she did tell me that living under that regime she had the benefit of a kind of spiritual wellbeing. However harsh, oppressive it was and despite the deprivation. There was the feeling that it was for the benefit of all. Total tosh of course but that's what it's like when you in the middle of it.

@wordywalt Have you watched : The Lives of Others [en.wikipedia.org]?

@PontifexMarximus No I haven't but my friend has a few horror stories. Including being forcibly adopted

Well … perhaps Tigger is too subversive … recently the duo was banned in China.

@PontifexMarximus No.

@avron They all say that they need power to achieve their ends but in the end it comes down to "power corrupts, absolute power corrupts absolutely". Rather like the "theory" of gravity. Sure it may not be true but we have not found a case where it does not hold true yet.
This works on a sliding scale. If you want to get the best deal from your govt in a democracy. Live in a swing state, better still if its a swing town. The worst deals are when the voters all religiously vote down the line. Irrespective of political parties, a complacent representative is a lazy one.
An interesting exception where the jury is still out being China. All our western democratic sensibilities rail against the very idea of a one-party system. Which despite its human rights abuses, it has managed to bring its population into the 21st century with a thriving economy.

@avron Way back in the 1960s, while in graduate school, I studied, among many other things, the theory and practice of communism because I was curious about what made it appealing to so many around the world. That included the structure and function of the soviet government. Marxism, in and of itself, is a total system ideology. It did call for a "dictatorship of the proletariat" in which a ruling class of ideological purists would dominate all facets of life in the communist system, so as to kill or drive out any differing or competing thoughts or ideas.

That is exactly what the Russians attempted to do, as did Mao in China, and Tito in Yugoslavia. All tyotal system ideologies, whether political or religious, attempt to create a world of "true believers" who willingly and completely give up their freedom of thought and action to be a part of a purportedly inevitable outcome.

@wordywalt The problem is that all systems are flawed. Communism was a reaction against capitalism and (in the places where it held sway longest) feudalism.
The great war put an end to feudalist ideology. "Lions led by donkeys" broke the back of serving our betters.
Capitalism is incredibly efficient at providing goods, services, and some innovation but is cyclical and has no morals. A drug dealer would not sell his grandmother, market forces would look to the price offered 1st.
It also motivated too much in the short term gain. I doubt if Henry Ford's reasons for paying $7 a day would hold much sway with the bean counters of today's boardrooms.
Communism turned out to be a lie. It purported to empower the proletariat but was instigated and controlled by the elite. With top-down thinking. ( "Revolution is the opiate of the intellectuals" ) * Not that elite is bad but one had to buy into the politics as well. ( I have never known anyone who asks about their doctors' politics ). Where has come into its own, is in the watered-down version of socialism.
Every country now runs more efficiently with a greater or lesser degree of socialism. Rather like seasoning in a dish. The debate is not whether it's good or bad but how much do we want?

The problem with countering all-inclusive ideologies in an argument is that they are incredibly attractive, especially to the young. It is much harder to put the case for a mixed economy, checks and balances system.

• A quote I attribute to Haden-Guest. Died 1936 in Spain. Great uncle of Spinal Tap fame.