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With the recent death of my dog I've been thinking about death more than usual and something occurred to me. I'd like to hear some argument on this. Earlier this week, I posted my thoughts on reincarnation and in that post I stated that all life starts with non-existence. None of us existed for billions of years before we were born. After that, we live then we die and in so doing, we return to non-existence. It's a perfect circle that ends where it began. It has always been my assumption that that was it. No one ever returns so reincarnation isn't a thing.

Here's what occurred to me

If existence can and does begin with non-existence as I outlined above then once we die and no longer exist again is it feasible that we can somehow be made to exist again through the same process that brought us about the first time?

Am I being clear? If we didn't exist, then we did, then we didn't, we're in the same place we were before we existed last time. Can the process simply repeat and some version of us be recycled into a new existence?

A lot of people like to throw around the Law of Conservation of Energy that states that energy can neither be created nor destroyed as a justification for reincarnation and what I'm speculating on is based on fact -- we didn't exist, then we did, the we don't so could we again via the same process since we're at the exact same starting point?

It would be a completely new life and a completely blank slate so you would have no memory or awareness of any previous life. Could this be a workable hypothesis for reincarnation?

Or am I just trying way too hard to somehow get my dog back?

Am I even making myself understood?

Sgt_Spanky 8 Nov 23
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62 comments (26 - 50)

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1

In your example, the prime question is, "how random were the processes that arrived at you?" There's more than one human who is identical to you (genetically identical human) running around right now. Many people actually meet humans identical to them physically, or are born with twins.

So I do not find that part of what you're saying outlandish at all. However, as we all know; the you who is you is a collection of atoms, molecules and experiences unique to you, including dealing with your parents and the things you have consumed. Our personalities and what we do with our physical likeness is due to our collection of experiences.

So I accept that the human dna which makes up my body is and has been duplicated by the same rules that made me this time. Due to the amount of people alive, multiplied by the average span of life; our genetics, along with our genetic marker variations make our bodies absolutely duplicatable.

It's not magic, though. We are not special or unique snowflakes. It's numbers and probabilities. Which makes it boring, and easy to comprehend. People seem to hate having their magic replaced with simplicity.

SCal Level 7 Nov 24, 2019
1

This is what makes us agnostic we truly don't really know what happens after death. Except whether you are a king or precious loved Pet we all end up in the ground. I see what is real that my immortality is holding my two sons by the hand. A part of me will go on after death.

I tell religious people when someone comes back from the dead and tells me what an afterlife is like or if it even exists, then I'll believe in it.
I really have to see it and experience it to believe it.

@Everpresentdog I do have a friend who died on the operating table. He said he went down this dark tunnel and at the end, found a kind of forest setting where some little girls were playing by the water. He felt SUCH love. But he turned back and "returned," or whatever and is alive to tell that story. I place more credence in it b/c he says he doesn't care if people believe him or not; it's just what he experienced. And he never used the word god or heaven, just peace and love.

@LeftCoastgal maybe have been an unconscious dream? I have also had a friend same situation. He didn't see anything. A lot of the nurses asked him if he saw anything he is also agnostic so he kind of screwed around with them he told him that he was surrounded by butterflies rainbows and unicorns.

Pardon me, but what are you calling "I"?
"This is what makes us agnostic we truly don't really know what happens after death"

I the spring of 88 I awoke while in service in Germany, got dressed and went to PT. On the way I had a Salavador Dali experience. See I Dressed for late fall prior to Thanksgiving but when I got outside the trees were budding and it was a warm and sunny morning. An impossible morning because yesterday it was late fall.

Seems that I fell in 87, and got myself a mild edema, which for months gave me mood swings and loss of memory. Apparently I was a walking talking pain in the ass for a couple of months after I got out of the hospital, Army had me on a timer for discharge. They did not operate then because the risk of the surgery was greater than the threat of the mild edema, so they had me wait and see. After three weeks they sent me back to my unit to wait and outprocess me if no change was discovered.

It did, with about 45 days left till they tossed me out on a medical.

SO, where was "I" all those months?

Death is off, life is on. to assume we don't know what happens after death ASSUMES there is an after death for which we have no evidence.

1

In my mind this is reincarnation:
Let’s say you buried your companion animal under an oak tree.
As time goes by it’s nutrients feed the oak tree. Your best friend has now become part of the tree. When the tree has an acorn and this acorn is eaten by a Scrub Jay, your companion has reincarnated into a Scrub Jay.
Now let’s say the tree is in your yard and the Jay comes by for treats (peanuts are a good treat) you have now seen and in joyed
the pleasure of reincarnation!
Of course it’s not your beloved best friend but it is the Atoms of life. Your puppy lives on and will visit you daily.

I LOVE that!! I'm going to think about that from now on! Now. Where did we bury grandpa???

1

Why don't you just read some the countless case histories and decide for yourself if reincarnation is a "thing" or not?
Getting our opinions isn't going to decide it for you. Check it out yourself.

1

Yep. This has occurred to me too, and the theory works... with no religion needed.

Just like if you break the numbers down, it's possible that you have breathed or drank an atom of oxygen that Napoleon did... so goes all the atoms in your body. These days, alot of dinosaurs are getting extra life, as their carbon atoms have been dug up and aerosolized, making it into our air and water, and eventually us... yep... living again. I've got a bit of stegosaur in my right elbow (a teensy bit of carbon, but it's there)... been with me since day 1, by my calendar.

I don't lay claim to energy though...that stuff is fickle and has no allegiance. It comes and goes with each passing breath or stool sample. And it sounds too close to religion when one starts laying claim to it.

1

I have also had dogs, and cats, for that matter, and they become family, and it does hurt when they die. Sorry for your loss.

1

Despite the law of the conservation of energy, or within it, there is no place for reincarnation. Whatever energy was held in one's body, upon death, and it's physical energy, not some sort of psychic stuff, will be recycled in the process of disintegration of the body over the time it takes for it to fully decompose. This is true no matter the form of burial, cremation, or burning on a pyre. When a body is left to decompose naturally in ground burial, for instance, we get the old children's rhyme about the worms crawling in and out of the body. They are not just coming to pay a visit, they are eating, and recycling. That is nature's role for the vultures of the world. We take nutrition from animal meat, and others take nutrition from our meat, however long it takes. That's the real cycle.

1

Yes, this is something I have believed for over 40 years. Alan Watts called it the universe "I-ing" itself."

"It would be a completely new life and a completely blank slate so you would have no memory or awareness of any previous life."

1

I was watching a program about super-nova and listening to the discussion when it appeared to me that we are a combination of matter and energy that has in one form or another existed since the beginning. If the laws of the conservation of energy are correct as I am sure they are, then when we die the matter in our bodies returns in some form to the Earth. It does not matter what form this matter takes. This matter becomes part of its surroundings and so can become plants, be eaten and placed within a body, or it can just lay there forever (almost). At some time this matter will be converted and absorbed into something. The energy that resides within a body returns to the world, galaxy or whatever.Since energy travels at the speed of light it will not experience the traversing of time. So all we can say is that after we die we will be part of something else in some manner we may not be aware of. We are a part of Nature and however it works, we are a part of it. There is no escape. No matter we will traverse back to the stars.

All of that is correct.

1

In Mexico, and elsewhere, there are three deaths: the moment the body ceases; the moment the body goes unto the ground; and the moment you are forgotten. Write and post and have the pup live for decades. (And, yes, I have heard disney the evil empire made a film about that idea).

1

Losing a loved one (of any species) can be terribly painful, and for that you have my heartfelt sympathies. To ease these pains, there is a great temptation to go beyond the accumulated evidence, where it is safe to construct a "what-if" which can't be disproved, and find a bit of comfort there. I wouldn't begrudge you your comfort.

skado Level 9 Nov 23, 2019

I know I'm grasping at straws. It'll pass.

1

One quick look at basic physics blows that thought out of the water.

Meet Mars. She can never be replaced when she dies, but after she dies she will live in my memory until I die. In essence, memories are the stuff of immortality.

Yeah, I know. I'm just looking for a loophole so I can get my dog back.

1

Once upon a time... You were conceived. At that very moment the Water, Carbon, Oxygen, Amino acids that compose you right now, were part of some other living thing or raw earth, still in its matrix. None of the atoms that composed you then are still with "you". We are not matter and energy as much as we are a current arrangement of mass and energy. This arrangement is so particular that it could never occur again. Even clones, raised in the same environment would have individual life paths that can never match each other and have the same result.

If I or the universe made to happen a manuscript or you and then I threw the manuscript into an active volcano, would the manuscript exist anymore? Agreed that I and the universe at large would be changed from what it would have, had the manuscript never been composed. But could I or the universe ever complete it again? I think it most unlikely. Moreover, why should i or the universe wish to recompose such an arrangement? By what needful process could this begin to occur?

1

Sorry to hear that your beloved pet has died. It can be so traumatic and hard to deal with. To your idea I think anything is possible but I don't think it likely. Materials that formed your dog will change into new materials and those materials will over time form part of new living things and inanimate objects but that will happen with your toaster too. Your dog's consciousness will not come back because it was a result of that particular living animal which has ended. We are all products of stardust but we are no longer stars. So, everything that has ever existed moves on and changes state which is kind of comforting to me that that happens and there is no real loss but this is a very long way away from reincarnation.

This post has generated a lot of well thought out comments, yours inclusive.

1

In Star Trek, Deep Space 9, they had this shape-shifter dude, Odo. When he finally went back to his home planet, his fellow shape-shifters were all in a pool, as if they were all part of a whole. Made me think that's what might happen to our spirit after our bodies die. Our spirits return to a pool of spirits which may or may not inhabit another physical body in the future. Who knows?

1

Your dog dies, let’s say you buried the dog under an oak tree. As time passes your dog provides nourishment too said tree and eventually an acorn appears.
Your dog has reincarnated into an Oak Tree, then into an Acorn. Let’s say a Scrub Jay eats the acorn.
Your beloved dog is now a Scrub Jay.
If you have a bird feeder or feed Jays with something they in joy like peanuts. Your beloved reincarnated dog, now a Jay, will come by daily for a hand out. Although the Jay cannot replace your best friend it can provide entertainment, appreciation and the knowledge that your dog has been reincarnated!

That's pretty much how I see it. I'd rather have her back exactly as she was but I'll take what I can get.

1

No one can prove it does not happen, or that we don't have another life, everything is complicated and very little known. Another idea some people had was that the universe as a whole reincarnates, goes back the big bang, and starts all over running the same stories. Lots of things possible.

No one can (supposedly) prove that a god doesn't exist but most intelligent people can see through this false argument. I think it also applies to other things as well.

@JackPedigo My common sense tells me that you are right, and that is what I think. But my common sense also tells me that the universe is probably a lot more complex and difficult to understand than most people think, and that the underlying truth about it is probably something no one has even thought of yet.

@Fernapple It is a lot more complex but why would it put one life form at the top of the list. I find all ideas to extend out lives very egocentric. To me the only way to true knowledge is through reasoned based humility.

@JackPedigo Yes I wholly agree, all I am saying is that I can not disprove amny speculation, such as the post, and that I observe that there are, at this time and perhaps always, limits to knowledge.

1

Similar thought here: [whatchristianswanttoknow.com] except they don't believe in recycling of soul.

Sincere condolences on the loss of your dog. I always grieve the loss of a pet fairly hard.
I also now go and get a new pet fairly quickly - my time here is limited and there are so many pets that need decent homes.
Maybe you'll find room in your heart for a new love when your grief has lessened.

I need animals in my life. They're like air to me. Rather than adopting just one, I'm thinking of fostering so I can help many.

@Sgt_Spanky The only reason I don't foster is I know I'd fail and want to keep them all. It takes a certain strength to send them on to a good home.
My Maev came from a foster situation. They found her in NY, NY - and brought her to a Labrador rescue in CT. Than I found her.
Pretty glad those foster situations exist - they save a lot of animals.

@RavenCT I agree. The more I can help, the better I'll feel.

1

That is so true!

That can apply to any pet. I've had dogs and cats. One cat had feline leukemia and I had to hold him as he looked at me while the vet euthanized him. Not easy.

@JackPedigo Me too. It tore me apart. I'm a sucker for animals. I love them far more than people.

0

We, as with every other living being, or being that has ever lived, has been and was made of the same matter that makes everything else. Matter is made of star stuff, that which has been made and continues to thrive within the Universe. We all come into being and thrive for only a short time before we return back to the stuff that makes stars, and everything else. As this is true, it is also true, that while we are alive there is nothing else in the Universe that takes up the same space and time. Each entity spends its time with those who it has been placed next to. Out of all the stuff out there, each cat, dog, other human, everything was created and placed near me for the sole reason of my being able to experience. Each entity is the only one there is in the Universe and our being able to experience the world with that character within it is presented only to me in the way I experience it. It is up to me to either appreciate that which has been brought before me or not. I find that everything is different and all has been brought before me is so I can experience that, all that participates in this adventure with me has the same abilities. Pay attention, one never knows what will show itself to us, we would not want to miss something the Universe spent its energy to present or be presented.

0

We are all stardust. Who knows where everything will end up but we all get recycled in some way, shape or form.

Similar to... At least some of the water (think molecules) you drink today was pissed out by a Venetian sailor 500 years ago when he had too much wine!

0

Different philosophies cleave reality to reveal a picture. That picture can be insensible death, cosmic consciousness, reincarnation, heaven, valhalla, and so many others. You can visit these different worlds in your mind as you choose to seek them. Each conveys beauty and a chance to glimpse wisdom. But, we should always be humbled by the ignominious picture as projected by a universe of incomprehensible numbers and dimensions, of which we are the tiniest slivers.

Perhaps the uniqueness of our existence is its own dimension. With the hundreds of billions of galaxies and hundreds of billions of stars and planets, are we unique? Do we have doppelgangers in the multiverse?

You have the freedom to choose your reality, and to change that choice. In a very real way, you can imagine the world you live in. To be sure, your consciousness is an imaginary construct, albeit a dynamic one.

We do well to contemplate the endearment we achieve with our pets. What is love? Interspecies relationships speaks to the heart of what we are, and who we are.

0

I wrote this post about my brother's passing back in 2017. Maybe this will help me get my point across.

It's been a couple of weeks since my brother passed and I have not really said anything about it For the rest of my life Christmas will always be the time Jamie left this life. But it will also be the time that he rejoined the greater universe.

I am not a religious man and I don't know what lies beyond this life if anything. I do know a few things. The tiniest particles in our bodies, the atoms of calcium in our bones, the iron in our blood, all of these are born in the heart of a star. When this star reaches the end of its life cycle, it erupts and spreads these atoms into the universe where they join other elements and give birth to another star. Some of these starts have planets and, on our little bit of star stuff, life is born.

I like to think that my brother has simply gone back to the universe and the particles that once were him will, one day, be scattered once again. I like to think that some of him will become part of another world, another living thing, perhaps a brother who loves and is loved. A writer once said that we all have time machines. Those that take us into the future are our dreams. The ones that take us to the past are called memory. I find Jamie when I use either one.

May you all have a wonderful Christmas and the New Year bring health and happiness.

0

I'm sorry, but the concept of reincarnation has no basis in reality, no factual evidence that can be properly tested or potentially falsified. We are the result of all the stimuli we have received over a lifetime. Once out brains, the storage units for all the data, are no longer functional all of that information is lost. We cannot 'come back', or return for another lifetime because we've essentially been erased. Our atoms are recycled, becoming part of different things, perhaps even different people. That's our true immortality.

0

Oof. What a good question. As I type, a dear friend is clinging to life in hospice at our local hospital. Will he be reincarnated back into a bird with Michael's good persona/soul? Is it "just" over? I like to think (a lot of stupid things, but here goes) that his spirit, what makes him "him" comes back into someone that's born after he dies. But I'm equally amenable to agree that that's not so! (I also like to think that when someone dies a new star appears in the sky that night, and I'll be looking for Michael's here soon. I know it's BS, but it makes me a little calmer.) Interested to hear what others have to say!

AND, everyone who is visiting him keeps reminding him he gets to soon see his beloved dog who died a few years back. If that puts a smile on his agnostic face, then good.

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