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Why atheist get it wrong when addressing apologetics.
Apologetics is defined as a reasonable defense. The question is why any god would need any defense from humans at all. If there is a god or gods they could make whatever they want known, known to everyone in person. If they could not do so then they are not worthy to be called a god. If they don’t care enough to make their will known then we have no reason to care either.
If a human believes that they must explain what god failed to, then I must question that their teachings have anything to do with god at all.
The biggest problem with apologetics is that apologetics exist. It actually undermines the god concept all together. The more they defend their god the more sure I am that their god does not exist or is not worthy of worship or even my attention.
Rather than address every apologetic arguement like the orgin of the universe, or logical fallacies such as the god of the gaps which simply waste time we should be addressing the fact that they are apologizing for gods that need many apologies.

DavidLaDeau 8 Jan 13
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23 comments

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5

While I realize it's probably one of my lesser traits, I nonetheless tend to be dismissive of most apologists, but most especially religious apologists.

As was very rightly pointed out by @LatentumCattus, they don't exist to challenge
atheists, but to convince those who are questioning their religious beliefs.

To me, it's nothing more than a stop-loss tactic.
They can't defend the nonsense they espouse with factual evidence, so they
resort to emotional appeals and circular reasoning.

Yeah, they aren't trying to convince me of anything. They know I know they're
completely full of shit and they'd be wasting their time with me.
They're going after those who are starting to say, "Hey, wait a minute."
Their numbers are falling. The revenue streams are drying up.
People are turning away from the snake oil.
They're shitting their pants and scrambling to keep the flock in line.

Agreed thoroughly.

While it is occasionally entertaining to mess with them, wasting time on the apologists diverts attention from solving the real problem - get the information, science and knowledge into the next generation.

The rest will take care of itself.

@LatentumCattus That's been one of the hardest lessons for me to learn.
How to quit arguing with the believers and get them to accept reason.
I can't. I am incapable of changing anyone's mind.

So, I focus on imparting as much knowledge as I can to the children I have access to, while I have it.

@KKGator - Absolutely.

I prefer to use my time and energy to bring the Kiddos to the science than worry about what the adults are doing.

Mind you, I keep an eye on the civics of the matter (for these louts still hold power and try to make laws - the Wedge Strategy is still alive and well on the local levels of politics), but in NYC its just too hard for the evangelicals to make any lasting changes.

That's why we're Evil and Sinful and beyond Redemption here... :::giggles gleefully:::

5

Apologetics don't exist because atheists allow them. Apologetics exist to bolster up those who may be questioning their faith.

Apologists like William Lane Craig don't care about winning arguments against atheists (though it is but one means to an end); they only care about not losing membership. The preachers preach and the apologists "yes" them to validate the message to the masses. If that d00d says "This is the way it is" and the other d00d nods solemnly, the average believer will go with that is confirmation.

This is basic psychology. This is also why apologists gleefully accept the label (duh); it gives them even more 'humble credibility' to the masses.

"Addressing" apologetics is like saying we need to just get rid of war; like people are just gonna stop fighting.

Let them blather on, I say. The real battle is one of education. There is where we need to remain vigilant. Keep our education secular and free from religion - keep scientific information open and available - Keep them learning while they are young - eventually the evangelicals will wan, people will (and trending shows that they are, in record numbers) turn away from this nonsense. Eventually, such mythological thinking will be the rarity and not the norm and apologetics will be no more.

It won't happen in my lifetime, or even a century or two from now, but it IS coming. Undeniably. Inexorably.

Very true and well said..

@DavidLaDeau - Thank you.

I see it as a matter of apologetics and apologists are symptoms of the underlying problem.

To eliminate the problem, we need root cause analysis. Kill the root with education and the weed can't grow in the kids. Then, it's just a matter of time until the old school dies off with their silly mythologies and these kids inherit the earth...

4

I don’t actually give a rat’s arse what any of them say! They can defend their gods and make up apologetic arguments until they’re blue in the face, but I just say...”show me the evidence of god’s existence”. That usually stops them in their tracks and ends all argument.

I always say... Well if it makes you feel any better... I don't believe in ghosts either.

3

Science needs no apologists.

3

I don't apologize for who I am, I am me take it or leave it otherwise fuck you

bobwjr Level 10 Jan 13, 2020
3

In my opinion , "Why bother ? " is a better question . Other than when they come knocking on my door , I try not to get into these debates with those of other religions . Sahira law aside , I choose to let others believe in whatever they believe . If their religion satisifies whatever their needs are , why try to strip them of whatever comfort they get from their religion ? It isn't for me , and for most of us on this site , that doesn't mean it doesn't satisify their needs .

Sharia law.

I say something similar when they come to my door. I also try to remind them that there is a public jail one town over. I try to help them understand that there are people in there that probably need to believe in anything other than their life of crime. I point to my neighbors and let them know that we are pretty good people already and probably don't need their guidance. I asked them if they would please visit the jail and try to talk to the folks there? I don't know if they do or not.

3

The human made up gods need plenty of apologies for the lack of evidence that any of them exist.

3

The only person I can change and control is myself.

As an atheist since age 13, I have years of experience rebuffing Christians who try to convert me. Smart-aleck replies in my back pocket:

"I don't believe in an invisible being who resides somewhere beyond the clouds."

"We are ALL atheists here," I say, waving my arm to include the entire neighborhood.

"I stopped having imaginary friends at age four."

"I don't believe in Santa Claus, the Tooth Fairy or invisible gods."

This shuts them up. Perfect. While they puzzle, I say goodbye and exit.

Wait a minute, no tooth fairy? Now I;m crushed, where did all those dimes come from then?

3

It's useless to argue with apologists because they can change their argument, and will, whenever they are pushed into a corner. It's all post-hoc attempts to justify beliefs that have zero factual basis.

2

Well...you may consider apologetics a silly endeavor but many Christians do not. I think you make a good point though, after all, I don’t need apologetics to prove my wife exists yet the creator of the universe is extremely elusive. He should be as obvious as Canada. But, If you want to intelligently debate, then you should know why their arguments are fallacious. I do understand if you’re not interested in that because to us it is so obvious there is no god. God is an absurd concept so why bother arguing something that is so obvious. Personally, I think though that knowing the various ideas in apologetics can be fruitful. It was for me. I was studying in seminary for a masters in Apologetics. As soon as I heard the flip side to apologetics, I stopped wasting my time and money on god. I credit Dawkins, Hitchens and Harris for helping me to see the light.

Nuke Level 5 Jan 14, 2020

Anything made up it's going to be "elusive."
Ghosts, Boogeymen, closet monsters. Why would a good illusion be any different, right? I hear you.

Is it the money involved that makes it appear that this one thing... Labeled with a word, "god" can break the barrier and be something different? To me that's just silly. What if I make up a word and get people to believe it? ... Because I want to make money off it.... Or get powerful... Or simply see if I can make people jump and dance when I snap my fingers. Lol

2

Humans in general seem to be overly protective of things they love or are attached to . They have this god that is Omnipotent, so why in theory would it need defense? Because this god of their’s does not show up to defend itself , they see themselves as it’s children or disciples , so they must defend him . Purely behavior of one caught up in ego .

Huh?

@Storm1752 I went back and edited that post , I was falling asleep as I typed and sent that . Lol

2

I studied apologetics for years while making my way out of religion. They consistently use bad logic, and fail to provide any convincing evidence for their claims. Of course, I did not read all the apologetics that exist, and there is a slight possibility that there is some such book that makes sense. But no such reasonable apologetics book has come to my attention.

1

Actually.... They are apologizing for made up ghost ideas.

1

I agree..I don't get why agnostics and atheists bother to defend their beliefs or argue with religious nuts at all. Let them be ignorant. Vote them out of office, and please talk about something ELSE on this forum.
Agnostic members still want to find someone to date, right?

Holding forth about the foolishness of the religious to those already convinced, who have moved on to live their lives as they wish seems counter-productive. Doesn't anyone here have hobbies? Go on interesting trips?

I will admit being that this is a platform for agnostics atheist and even theist I use it to provoke thought.

@DavidLaDeau If you intend to use this website to date agnostic women you might want to talk about more interesting topics. I don't imagine any women here would swoon over someone beating a dead horse subject they've long rejected.

Mos cis hetero women want to find a lifetime partner, so it would be wise to read their bios, read their former posts, then start interacting with them about shared interests and hobbies. If she seems to like you, send a private message. If she still seems to like you and lives nearby, meet near her house in a public place, YOUR TREAT. Each take separate cars.

Women typically want to be courted and wooed, not used to satisfy the lust of strange men.

@birdingnut I have joined this site for the community. Your advise is good!

1

You stated out by saying "Why atheist get it wrong when addressing apologetics." If you stated out with Why atheist get it wrong when addressing god then your point would make any argument moot. Point is, is that God (Yahweh, god or Allāh) is written to be infallible and pure. Without a belief in a higher being you can argue without bias. You can't be wrong with arguing with God apologetics unless you are wrong with arguing with the person.

1

Aren't you yourself apologizing for your "faith?"
Why do you care? It sounds for all the world like you're trying to convince YOURSELF of something!

1

Why generalize about atheists? Are we all alike? We have one thing in common: we don't believe there are any gods. If we have anything else in common it is coincidental. Some argue with apologetics and some walk away. I would wager that more religionists argue with each other about which religion or religious interpretation is right than atheists bother with religionists. They come after us often. We don't chase them down and demand that they stop believing -- and now i am generalizing and maybe some do but i have not encountered them.

g

Exactly! And of course there are people that don't believe in "God" but believe in ghosts. Are they, "religious?" It's all just weird. Putting labels on it doesn't help. I think it's all just being delusional to a degree.

1

Just because an argument is reasonable, doesn't make it right.

1

Maybe we could ask ourselves what are those Christians apologizing for? That's my take on apologetics. 🙂

@Gwendolyn2018 Yes, I was trying to be amusing. To me apologetics is a sad, broken record using double talk to explain absolutely nothing. It has came into being because it is no longer 300 AD.

1

You seem to blame atheists for everything, why are you in this site then?

My point was that atheist make the mistake of enguageing in apologetic arguments unstead of addressing the fact that apologetics itself is absurd. This was obviously, my fault for failing to communicate well. I am on this site to provoke thought. Please sight any place where I have blamed atheist for anything.

@DavidLaDeau do you mean "cite"? Ok, I don't follow you but here's a quote from one of your posts "Why are atheist so obsessed by religion?" Isn't that blaming them for being obsessed?

1

...but you never explain your claim that 'atheists get it wrong when addressing Apologetics'. Was that a teaser? The few atheists who care see Apologetics as bad propaganda based on illogical arguments. It is tedious and useless to classify the various fallacies since the originators do NOT care about truth.

Your argument that Apologetics is self-defeating has some merit, but the immorality of Christian behavior is more effective for those that will listen.

The idea was that atheist bother to enguage in the arguments when the premise of said arguments are fallacious before they are begun. If one has to make any defense of God then the god is not a god at all.. That is the argument that needs to be addressed instead of going down the rabbit hole and entertaining the arguments.

In reality, anyone can try to bullshit anyone. Perhaps it's human nature to want to do it? It's dishonest though. And it's very evil when you do it to small children who can't defend themselves (indoctrination.)

1

I agree with you. I constantly kick back to theists that we are not debating complete solutions to life, the universe and everything. We are trying to determine if their religion is not as mythical as every other religion that has had its time and passed. All of the apologetic arguments are attempts to hide the leap of faith, or putting the cart before the horse and moving on to assertions based on an unproven founding assertion.

1

God is not my name, I really do exist. I have eaten a taco, I am not here apologizing for anything.

Word Level 8 Jan 13, 2020
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