We have an expression in the UK which says ” Not singing from the same hymn-sheet ” when family, friends or colleagues are at cross purposes over an issue. It is not limited to choir practice in the local church. It may well be in use in the US.
Do you think members of this agnostic ‘ choir ’ will ever ‘ sing ’ from the same printed sheet? What would be the advantages of actually doing that ( we could have a separate ‘ diversity watch-dog ' ), If you think it would be good to have such a sheet, but a readily adaptable one - what would be written on the sheet?
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21 comments
Feel free to reply to any comment by clicking the "Reply" button.I think what sets agnostics apart from the religious choir is that we think for ourselves and find our own tune to add to the symphony.
We may harmonize with others who think similarly, or are on the same wavelength, but very seldom do we find many who think exactly the same on the whole subject of spirituality and religion.
It's kind of nice to turn the dial to tune in and listen to the many other melodies as we continue to find our own voice, not so much to copy or mimic, but to add our own composition in the end, to the richness and diversity, rather than just one hymn sung like sheep, without thinking much about the big picture or inclusiveness for all.
Julie808
Level 8
Jan 15, 2020
5
Religionists only agree up to a point too.
This is good . Cannot wait to hear your composition.
That will never happen, and probably shouldn't. But in the long run, being exposed to unfamiliar songs may influence us for the better.
skado
Level 9
Jan 15, 2020
3
This reply starts at a low ebb and then gets better.
That would plain boring if we all where singing from the same hymn-sheet, and me who cannot hold a tune.
Jolanta
Level 9
Jan 15, 2020
2
I did mention diversity as an anti bore. Humans telling their human stories can never be boring. If you can spend some time on or just thinking about human problems then , "You can hold a tune" on this non-hymn sheet.
I do not belong to a choir.
Nor would I choose to sing from the same sheet, if I did.
I'm also not agnostic.
We are never ALL going to be on the same page.
Personally, I don't believe we ever should.
KKGator
Level 9
Jan 15, 2020
2
If you say no then it will not be everybody, but can it be that a lot do join together?
@Mcflewster What others choose to do is entirely up to them.
I have no intention of attempting to prevent anyone from doing what they want to do.
We say 'not on the same sheet of music' for the same purposes. As for the 'choir', just remember that there is no harmony when only one note is sung.
sterlingdean
Level 6
Jan 15, 2020
1
I did mention diversity and agree very much with it. I should have talked more about harmony.
@Mcflewster That is the way the ideas are expressed and examined more than anything else. Mutual respect, intellectual honesty, and simple common courtesy.
Let’s hope it never comes to that. Everybody thinking the same would be awful. A bit like singing gods praises in Heaven because there is nothing better to do.
Let’s hope some dissenting voices remain!
Geoffrey51
Level 8
Jan 15, 2020
3
I WANT dissenting voices but some agreement in harmony for some of our writings
I must admit I don't think so and that may well be a very good thing! It keeps the conversion moving along.
brentan
Level 8
Jan 15, 2020
2
You have" Hit the nail on the head "with regard my purpose. Should I not have tried?
I suspect it's a non-runner. When I left the Jehovah's Witnesses, there was a bunch of us all together on the XJW sites but it didn't take long before dissension arose and the sites imploded. I have a feeling the agnostics (and maybe the atheists too) have very individual ideas about we live our new lives. If there was a list, my main thing would be: organised religion is out.
@brentan Humans do LIKE to organise themselves in the main. Do you want us to have an anti-organisation organisation?
@Mcflewster LOL. TBH, not really. I feel that religion is fine as just beliefs. I look on it as early psychology. I hate the way it has become so manipulative. Nonetheless, I like to be my own person now that I'm free of that stuff so I wouldn't like to have to bend to group-think anymore, even if it is secular.
How's it different from "not on the same page?"
Shawno1972
Level 7
Jan 15, 2020
2
It is the same just longer.
Unification typifies a common goal. A sports team works together to win the game.
So, my question is "To what end?"
Personally, I enjoy cacophony and caterwauling to the beat of my own trumpet.
LatentumCattus
Level 6
Jan 15, 2020
2
"To what end?" Simple Human Happiness that is all! Noisy or not
@Mcflewster - Huh???
You're gonna have to explain to me how applying the terms of your OP brings about Simple Human Happiness...
Harmony is but one aspect - I could argue that people get more productive measure out of competition and the adversarial process.
Sorry, I'm afraid this Cattus can't drink the kool-aid on this one; I immediately distrust shiny happy people...
@LatentumCattus "competition and the adversarial process" Yes to that ......to produce a diversity of ideas which would be a requirement, but after picking on one idea, there should be harmony "to get the bill through both houses. .
@Mcflewster - Nope, still not buying it.
I understand from a sociological point of view, there needs to be some 'cohesion' - rules generally that need to be followed.
Wear clothes in public. Don't cannibalize the neighbor. Stealing is bad.
Got it.
But Life is not a bicameral committee. I continue to caterwaul and refuse to wear a happy helmet...
Weather it is best or worse, people are like snow flakes. No two will ever sing from exactly the same sheet. For example, some wouldn't use these corny metaphors and some like these corny metaphors. I think that diversity is good. A group where all sing from the same sheet would be a very narrow group.
MrDMC
Level 7
Jan 16, 2020
1
Just to say I disagree - provided we have diversity watchdogs.
@Mcflewster Maybe we, on this site, are singing the same song but different verses.
@MrDMC True! How do we get more together?
@Mcflewster How are we not?
@MrDMC I actually think that there are too many people in the world who fear religions when all we have to do is replace what they do with better. I do know that it sounds simple and that it is not.
The closest thing I can think of to a hymnal might be "The Origin of Species" by Darwin.
BitFlipper
Level 8
Jan 15, 2020
1
Do you know of a (much)shortened version? i.e.what is its main message
@Mcflewster you might call this a hymn of sorts . . .
"Bringing In The Sheep." No, stupid. That's "Bringing In The Sheaves." You sing it your way and I will sing it mine.
DenoPenno
Level 9
Jan 15, 2020
1
How about "Bringing in the THINKERS"?
@Mcflewster makes me think of the symphony of science
@Davesnothere Thanks for that! Cannot think that the original sound was sung which is how it sounds on the video. How do they do that?
@Mcflewster how did he do that. Symphony is the brainchild of one bored brit with a science geek . . .
and musical talent.
Go on youtube, he has a whole album and more, on many topics.
Well, I can see what that saying means but, in general, I don't think it can be applied here. There are times to act like that but it depends on the situation. Speaking for myself, I avoid that.
Paddypereira
Level 7
Jan 15, 2020
1
Surely there are lawyers that will do it for you if you ask nicely?
@Mcflewster, what I meant was there are times in life to try to be on the same sheet as others and others that aren't that necessary to do so. In court, I don't doubt that about lawyers though.
I'm older than most and I'm quite familiar with the expression of "Not singing in the same choir" which is about the same thing. Sometimes we have to team with folks we disagree with on most issues in order to get a greater issue adopted. Nothing brings people together quicker than a common threat.
gearl
Level 8
Jan 15, 2020
1
My sheet music is this: Whenever missionaries addresses me, I ask for facts and evidence to back up what they say. Sometimes I show them evidence of false prophecies and contractions in the Bible. Some are more patient than others, but at some point, the missionaries will run away, never to contact me again. Hooray! And I hold onto the hope that I have planted a seed of logic and reason in them, and maybe it will bear fruit in the future. 
BestWithoutGods
Level 8
Jan 15, 2020
1
This is the first post that has even tried to look for common ground . which is what this post is about , although I did not express it very well. Well done for seeing through my mistakes
We Americans like to dance to the beat of a different drum. The only thing we need to unite on is being accepted and normalizing agnosticism and atheism. That is all.
Perhaps humanism might be what you are looking for.
DavidLaDeau
Level 8
Jan 18, 2020
0
This is why I posted in the first place - but no pressure.
@Mcflewster I like your thinking!
Never heard this "” Not singing from the same hymn-sheet ”
I oft heard this "Not working off the same blueprints"
"Do you think members of this agnostic ‘ choir ’ will ever ‘ sing ’ from the same printed sheet?"
NO, because neither Agnosticism nor Atheism have dogma or tennets, or a list of "these things I believe"
Rather both those positions are declaration only of lack, of knowledge or belief, they are negative positions not positive ones.
Hence any worldview we adopt is not atheistic nor agnostic, it is shaped by other ideas, from science, from politics, from philosophies, but not from religions we neither believe(atheist) nor have empirical knowledge of(agnostic).
Therefore we have no standardized hymn sheet to read off of, and no way to harmonize over those non issues.
We can and do harmonize over other things, like science, politics and so forth.
Davesnothere
Level 7
Jan 16, 2020
0
I believe we could have positive views about a world view if we just stop telling everyone what we do not believe in and spread what we do believe in . Everyone can find something positve to believe in and it is not JC.
@Mcflewster I long for the day I have no need at all to explain to people why I do not believe, as soon as the majority is full of critical thinkers that won't be the case.
I'm not holding my breath.
@Davesnothere I am with you on the critical thinking. It is worth the sacrifice to display critical thinking yourself and of your own self to encourage others.
@Mcflewster Believers are free to have whatever Pink Fairy suits them.
To believe in a God(s) without evidence is a matter of Faith, and anyone's right to do so.
To insist it is a fact, and not just Faith, is to require proof of your assertion.
To force your Faith onto others by Law is Authoritarian Theocracy.
No one can provide the second point, as it is a supernatural claim.
I will always stand opposed to the third point in the interests of Liberty itself.
People are free to believe whatever they desire.
People may believe the entirety of existence depends on the efforts of little pink Faeries which fly out of thier butts while they sleep.
I do not care, it does not affect me. It neither breaks my leg nor picks my pocket.
If they want to insist that is empirical, scientific reality,
then they need to prove those faeries are real.
If they want to make laws about those fairies without proving them,
then they are practicing a form of theocracy like the Talibhan.
err "not on the same page" is pretty common.
@praytothemilkjug I agree but not quite equivalent. 'Hymn-sheet' suggests that there are several different versions of essentially the same hymn through different religions . ' Not on same page" [Of a single book - assumed ] suggest there is no communication because they are reading completely different ideas. Not really worth bothering with the difference though as the reading together or singing together has lost it usefulness with distraction.
@Mcflewster I oft find myself in a different library, never mind book or page.
I’m happy with level of cohesiveness 
it’s interesting and I’m learning.
To what end would some manifesto be of benefit do you think?
girlwithsmiles
Level 8
Jan 16, 2020
0
Not ready fo a full manifesto yet. We need to establish some principles first e.g the value of science to everyone, not just scientists.
I don’t really mind whether we feel the same or not. We’re not all humanists on the site, but have enough in common to have mutual respect most of the time. The sense of community and connection with some people’s thought patterns is enough to bring me back regularly.
Perhaps in internal group? Science lovers? I’m in something similar already and it only includes certain members.
@girlwithsmiles I chose this site above the Humanist site and yes I have found respect.
Hmmm. Closest American expression I can think of, would be two people "not being on the same page".
davknight
Level 8
Jan 15, 2020
0
Yes Similar. Should we be in the same page as most of the posters in teis agnostic site - and what are the most important things we could agree upon?
Religion says "Believe it!". Science says "Prove it!".
Enjoy being online again!
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