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TL;DR - if you were going to use the Socratic method in some street epistemology to talk to a person about their religion and beliefs what do you think the most effective initial questions should be?

And now the long version...

Where I live I seldom have the chance to talk to anyone religious about their beliefs. No Mormons knocking on my door, no co-workers, prospective mates, friends, or family trying to cajole me into going to church, no religious protesters harassing people (we actually had an abortion clinic two blocks away but that closed down a few years ago but I was seldom anywhere near it when they were protesting) etc. etc. All my conversations about religion are generally with non-believers, and online you can rarely get a sentient conversation out of people - they either run away or just spout bible verses and rote responses at you like a bot (because maybe they are bots?).

But... if the situation did arise in real life - say stuck on a plane next to someone determined to talk religion to me - I think I'd be inspired by folks I've seen doing what is called "street epistemology" which is a form of the Socratic method (basically asking questions) where you ask people about what they know (epistemology being the theory knowledge). If that's new to you then search for "street epistemology" on YouTube and find dozens of examples of people trying it in real life.

My take on the street epistemology is it is basically asking someone questions about what they know, how they know it to be true, how they know their sources to be true, and also asking questions about their reasoning process - which can expose fallacies in a non-confrontational manner. You never directly tell them anything is not true, or that something else is a fact, or that their thinking is illogical - which is good because that never seems to work with religious people or people with that kind of belief. This method doesn't convert people on the spot, but it does sow seeds of doubt or create an interest in introspection and thinking for themselves which may later lead them to go look for information themselves independently. Anecdotally I've met several people who described how their process of ditching religion started after being asked questions or reading them online. That often lead to them reading the bible themselves independently, instead of just being told what the bible says or being given out of context snippets. That snowballed from questioning, to doubt, and eventually into full blown ditching of religion.

I'm not sure I'd be good at the Socratic method - I find it hard to check my contempt or snarkiness when discussing religion, but I think I'd give it a shot. I've also seen that some people really, really, don't like being asked questions about stuff their believe. My guess is either they are really unsure of their convictions and it makes them feel vulnerable - if only because they don't know why they believe what they believe - or they have been briefed about such things and not questioning or fielding questions about their beliefs. Hey, that's a great reason to banish of get rid of infidels, heretics, and non-believers right? No more awkward questions!

That leads me to conclude if you're gonna ask questions better make the first ones count - effective but maybe not too scary?

So getting to my TL;DR summary - if you were going to embark on some street epistemology with a religious person, probably someone you don't know personally, what would your initial questions be to get the juices of thought, introspection, reflection, questioning flowing - but without being too scary or confrontational.

And maybe as a follow up to my question - is there a way to couch those questions or an effective preamble that peeks their interest in even entertaining them in first place? E.g. "I'm interested in religions, but don't know much about them...", or ???

prometheus 7 July 29
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To answer my own question somewhat... I found there are some "meta" videos about street epistemology. I found this one A Humanitarian Option for Changing Minds by Anthony Magnabosco helpful. I also watched a few other actual "sessions" and found a common theme is getting the person to assign their own confidence level in whatever they are claiming to believe. Another seems to be not to actively initiate the discussion or pick the topic, let them come to you and say what they want to talk about. Another "trick" is if someone claims belief is based on feelings ask them if someone had the same feelings about something else (like a different holy book or god) would that make that it true. That feels a bit like epistemological "whataboutism" but it seems to work.

I'd be interested to know if someone has ever managed to pull off an online form of this ie. "online epistemology" because it really feels like the interpersonal interaction aspect is crucial...

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I would say that if you have never been involved in such talks with theists, then you have been lucky. And that a better way to spread the idea of sceptical thinking, is to set a good example of being a good human being, while being open about your lack of faith in the supernatural.

However should you get involved, there are I think two mistakes to avoid when debating with theists.

Firstly. Do not get in debates about the existence or none existence of god, in the abstract, you may think that the fact that they can not 'prove' objectively, the existence of god is a weakness of theirs. But they think that the fact that you can not, disprove it either, is your greatest weakness. The fact is, nobody can objectively prove or disprove anything, at all, even existence, about something which is invisible by definition. ( As Bertrand Russel put it. There is a china teapot orbiting in space, half way between the Earth and the Sun. Prove there is not? ) But if you allow them to debate on that issue, then they will, in their own minds, having got no disproof of god out of you, claim the debate by default, and assume that no disproof is the same as proof, and that an abstract god is equivalent to their own particular brand of theist god in their holy book. Its one of their greatest delusions, to assume that the word god, by default means their own god. You have to remember that they are not really trying to prove the existence of god, they are trying to prove, the existence of 'their' god. Therefore keep the debate on the evidence they are using for that gods nature, in other words as found in their holy book.

Secondly. Do not be afraid of saying. "I don't know." as often as you can, and that you are happy to accept not knowing. It annoys the s##t out of them, and kills nearly all their arguments. Because remember, it is they who are making false claims of knowledge, based on pseudo-authority: They know god exists, they know how the universe began, they have the final word on morality, they know what happens to them after death, etc. , and all with only the evidence in some old badly rewritten, edited and translated book. If for example they ask you say, (assuming creationists ) how did the universe started, you can say, the big bang or whatever, then they will start asking you about your evidence about before the big bang, and then you are going round in circles. Instead say I don't think anyone knows, and then ask them for their proof which you can attack, because they are the ones making dishonest claims of knowledge and plain simple honesty is something they have no answer for.

I completely agree on the proof part - although I think that teapot has to be an invisible teapot that cannot be detected (throw in listens to your thoughts and affects the outcome of sports games for good measure). I

I have no problems with I don't know. Although in terms of how the universe was created I'd probably use something like "There are disprovable hypotheses that suggest it could have been ... but as we gather more evidence then those hypotheses may be have to evolve or be completely discarded as disproven". I think getting someone to ask you questions is a great win in a Socratic discourse and if it is a chance to tell them how you establish your world view based on evidence and provable or at least disprovable hypotheses that's a win-win.

If someone really wanted to push God as their explanation of why the universe exists then I'd definitely follow them down that rabbit hole and ask questions about who created their God. If they want to make God special and doesn't need a creator then I'd ask why the universe can't be special and doesn't need a creator - maybe "the universe" is "god"?

I've always liked the idea as you suggested of not focusing God vs no-God questions, but God vs many Gods or some other God. That lets you segue to the ever fruitful "If you were born in Iran do you think you'd believe that Jesus died for your sins?" or "If you were born in India where they have many Gods couldn't yours just be one of them?". It also alludes to a willingness to believe in a god, and puts the ball i their court to defend why theirs in special and all the other no-provable and mostly not disprovable god theories are wrong.

I rather suspect that folks who ask a lot of questions just get written off as smarty-pants atheist time wasters or trouble makers and religious people are warned off talking to us. The street epistemology videos I've seen never seem to indicate what % of people want to talk to them, and rarely have examples where the person storms off after a minute (usually because some consent is legally required to share video).

@prometheus Yes I agree with all of that. Though with regard to the teapot, you have to remember that when he said that, almost anything in space was effectively invisible, and things like orbiting telescopes were not even deamed of in science fiction.

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The socratic method would need to be used with less vigour when dealing with most people, for religious views and emotions are often strongly connected. Those of faith may well become very defensive very quickly.
That said, there is a place for what you propose. Where do you start? It depends on what the person tells you about their religious views. Find out what the basis of them coming to faith was; was it belief in the Bible, the historicity of the resurrection, a religious experience, or... ? Then ask questions that gently probe that basis.

Yes I think you're right that there's no "one size fits all" question or questions. But just determining what questions to ask requires questions. I guess I'm looking for the meta questions to ask that might be more generic.

Just shooting from the hip...

What is God to you?
How does God impact your life?
Do you ever doubt God exists?
When did you start believing in God?
Did you ever not believe in God?
How did/do you learn about God?
Did you ever believe in more than one God?
If someone told you they believe in a different God what would you say to them?
If someone told you there is no God what would you say to them?

@prometheus Great questions. I wish I'd been asked more sooner

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Well, I would start with, "How do you know that to be true?" and go from there, I guess. If the answer is something like "Because it's in my holy book," the next logical question would be "and how do you know that the book is true?"

The answers I've gotten to that question about the book have taken three main paths: self-referential ("it SAYS it's the word of God!" ), historical/archeological: ("archeologists have found the ruins of x, just like my book described" ), and revelation ("God talks to me and told me so" ).

To the self-referential, I might ask "aren't there other books that also say they're the words of God?". To the archeological, I might ask "do the ruins of a city prove that your book is true, or do they just prove that the city was known to the author of the book? I mean, Charleston is a real city, and the Civil War happened - but we know that Scarlett O'Hara was a fictional character." To the claim of revelation, I might ask "How do you know that was God speaking?"

I've never encountered someone whose religion was NOT based on a book, but I've heard that they exist. I haven't given much thought to what I might ask them.

Thanks for the well thought out response. I'm assuming many non Abrahamic religions are not based on a book eg. Eastern or tribal religions.

I suppose we have contemporary "religions" or at least belief systems now that are not based on a book. I'm thinking of things like conspiracy theories and I encounter them all the time.

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Download the app Atheos. It's about what to say or ask believers.

Great idea although I was hoping for some personal recommendations preferably from experience. Sadly that app doesn't run on the latest version of Android my phone has. Hopefully they will update it eventually.

@prometheus I'm quite experienced with socratic questions and I've found that it doesn't work with delusional people. You bring them to a point where they have to see the errors in their conclusions and they just leap past it with magical thinking or those key words that tell you they are turning their brain off. "You have to have faith"

@Cyklone by strict dictionary definition of "delusion" belief in God seems to be Exhibit A:

an idiosyncratic belief or impression that is firmly maintained despite being contradicted by what is generally accepted as reality or rational argument, typically a symptom of mental disorder.
"the delusion of being watched"

However I think I know what you mean - the kind that basically rabidly preach and bash the bible like their life depended on it. One of the many psychoses that manifest as facets of America's mental health problem.

@prometheus Yes, there is little difference between a delusional disorder and a believer. Unfortunately it's not peculiar to americans although you do have a preponderance of them

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If I want to make believe I'll watch something on Comet.

barjoe Level 9 July 29, 2020
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