I detect a logical fallacy here. Nobody's saying that caring for widows & orphans and refusing to be corrupted is without virtue. If religion were actually defined by these two deeds alone, even the secular humanist acting in this manner could be considered a member. Unfortunately, we all know this not to be the case, as religions, on the whole, contain a complex latticework of unsubstantiated beliefs, absurd practices, false claims and superstitions.

@p-nullifidian That then is a seperate definition for religion that you give. Therefore, religion as a whole is NOT whole but has different meanings. Then trying to observe one definition of religion and apply that observation to ALL definitions of religion is what is illogical.

@p-nullifidian what exactly are you defining as "Religion "? I understand many people refer to biblical text as "Religious " text. Why is it called religious text?

The old testiment is like a collection of copies from selected documents from the Nation of Israel prior to 2000 years ago. Many of these documents are luke government records, former laws for the nation of Israel. Some of the writtings are recorded as being from "Executive " positions in the government -- prophets and kings. One such law required wash hands after touching a dead body. Is this an absurd practice? The LAWS of old testiment required one tax of 10% call a tithe, tithe reference to a 10 of, or tenth.

The new testiment is a collection of writtings that are purported to be from a few different people that gives testimony that a peculiar event occurred. Then, it purports what they at the time should do because of the purported event and it records some actions (such as book of Acts) of what some "leaders" did as a result of the purported event.

United States of America (the government) is no different than, or could very well be viewed as a religious organization. Requiring Tax, has laws, has executive people in government. Has laws that restuarant workers wash hands. Up holds such things as "In God We Trust ". Follows the written instructions from biblical text to require identification for taxation and government control. Revelations 13:17 that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark or the name of the beast or the number of his name.

Capitalism wage slave labor. A "religious " institution.

@p-nullifidian to go back and quote you, " ...as religions, on the whole, contain a complex latticework of unsubstantiated beliefs, absurd practices, false claims and superstitions."

You are talking about the United States of America, as one of the religious organizations, right?

@p-nullifidian would you say President Trump has said and written absurdity? Sounds like the talk of a religious leader to me leading the religion called United States of America.

@Word It's difficult to hold a conversation when one of the two parties can reel off four replies in rapid succession of 370+ words, most of which appear to have little to do with the original point.

@p-nullifidian please take your time, it might be my bed time. And it is all related to the point.

@Word Apart from presenting an excellent quote by A.C. Grayling, the original point by @Archeus_Lore was: “Religion is, least of all, a virtue,” to which you appeared to offer a defense of religion by quoting the Bible and asking why James’ description of religion would not be virtuous. I simply pointed out that your argument represents a logical fallacy and that religion is (on the whole) much more than the description found in this quote. From there, things went off the rails, in my view, which, in reply to your ramble, is as follows:

I accept a basic historical definition of religion which generally cites as its key attributes the worship of a superhuman agency or agencies, ritual observances, a system of faith, an organization with a clergy or priesthood and a laity, a house or place of worship, and a set of codes & precepts most often found in a revered, if not ‘sacred,’ collection of writings.

As a result, assigning a religious designation to such things as a government or a political leader make no sense to me whatsoever.

As far as the tiresome prattle about the Bible and the Old and New Testaments goes, this has no bearing on the original point and, in any case, is a source I don't recognize as authoritative and is something I no longer have an interest in.

@word "It is time to refuse to tiptoe around people who claim respect, consideration and, SPECIAL TREATMENT, on the grounds that they have a religious faith, as if having faith were, a privilege ENDOWING VIRTUE, as if it were NOBLE to believe in unsupported claims and ancient superstitions." Quoting a 2000 year old book of bullshit, especially a quote that has nothing to do with what was ACTUALLY said, will only prove you did not comprehend what you read. And if you think your source is so reputable, perhaps you should read it MORE, and take a look at THIS. [infidels.org]

@p-nullifidian after my nap: You say "I accept a basic historical definition of religion which generally cites as..." biblical text is at least almost 2000 years old, holds Guinness book world records for most copied book of its kind. Been peer reviewed for atleast almost 2000 years (certifiably) longer otherwise.

Where does your definition for religion come from and what supports the historicity for your definition?

@Archeus_Lore, @p-nullifidian you say, "As a result, assigning a religious designation to such things as a government or a political leader make no sense to me whatsoever."

As I pointed out, old testiment is laws of government for the Nation of Israel over 2000 years ago.

You are contradictory to YOURSELF that priest, laity etc. , is not a government position.

Government laws of old testiment required people to bring money, tithe (TAX) to the temple.

This is a form of government that you are saying is ONLY a "Religion "" as you mysteriously define religion.

@Archeus_Lore @p-nullifidian

you said, "And if you think your source is so reputable, perhaps you should read it MORE, and take a look at THIS. [infidels.org]"

My point about biblical government and United States of America "Religion " and research all the laws that has been made and cancelled. Construction prohibited alcohol then repealed.

Surface contradictions because of language translations do not mean much. Some one has seen God, no one has seen god. God is here, god is not here, not omnipresent. God is omnipresent but not here.

Origin language 'Ruach" is a force like breath, wind or a storm. Spirit in English is a bad translation.

God is spirit, people think ghost, as even written in some translation as holy ghost.

God as "Ruach" - Force, kinetic energy is all around.

You forgot to account for all of the others . . . . just coincidence right? I am one who studies languages . . . . you may be able to sidestep a few, based on the translation argument, but there far to many to claim that on all of them.

@Archeus_Lore I am not worried about "all of them" but here is a video I like that gives the best explanation about the garden of Eden myth and its genius of a story.

It also explains some of the language translations for "man" and for "Adam" that in English it appears that the biblical text has contradictions.

@Archeus_Lore for many of the other accounts for eye witness accounts that someone has seen God or not, science tells us that eye witness testimony will have contradictory statements. Google or do you own research on psychology of eye witness testimony.

Eyewitness error is one of the leading causes of wrongful convictions. In fact, the American Psychological Association estimates that one in three eyewitnesses make an erroneous identification. [ncbi.nlm.nih.gov]

If someone has seen a God thingie then that person would be a witness giving a testimony and witness testimony is scientifically considered to have contradictory statements.

IF ALL BIBLICAL WITNESSES STATEMENTS. Were exact and all match perfectly then it would be easy to say it is all forgey and fake because science says otherwise in regards to witness testimony. B

@Word "Where does your definition for religion come from and what supports the historicity for your definition?"

Merriam-Webster, American Heritage Dictionary, New Oxford American Dictionary

@Word "As I pointed out, old testiment is laws of government for the Nation of Israel over 2000 years ago."

As I pointed out, the Bible (both Old and New Testaments) are of no interest to me.

"You are contradictory to YOURSELF that priest, laity etc. , is not a government position."

What you are talking about is a theocracy where government and church are merged, which describes a minority of nations in the 21st century.

@p-nullifidian "church" was not invented until more recently 2000 years ago as a means to seperate from such as Roman government. Prior, as well as U.S.A., theocracies could be appropriate enought to say THEY are "In God We Trust" styles of god thingie worship government.

@p-nullifidian let me rephrase or clarify what I was say. "Surface contradictions because of language translations do not mean much. Some one has seen God, no one has seen god. God is here, god is not here, not omnipresent. God is omnipresent but not here."

To say for clarity in put EXAMPLES SUCH AS

"Surface contradictions because of language translations do not mean much.EXAMPLES SUCH AS:" Some one has seen God, no one has seen god. God is here, god is not here, not omnipresent. God is omnipresent but not here." These examples of contradictions do not mean much to me.

Does that clarify?

@Word Church is just a rebranding. It's a continuation of temple, which existed for millennia in ancient Rome, Greece, Babylon, Egypt, etc.

"Prior, as well as U.S.A., theocracies could be appropriate enought to say THEY are "In God We Trust" styles of god thingie worship government."

What the hell does this mean? Read it back to yourself, and translate it for me ... please!

@Word "These examples of contradictions do not mean much to me." Me neither.

@p-nullifidian church was a home meeting of "Christian " . After christianity was Romanized the word "chruch" continued to be associated with the Romanization of what was originally called "the way" in the book of Acts.

Prior to "Church" being Romanized, it was people meeting in home groups for study, socializing etc. . The Temple was realized to be the body of a person. The body is the temple housing cognition, or from greek, logos.

Temple by other religious governments would be like those built of stone.

U.S.A. could very well be called a theocracy.

@p-nullifidian it was Archeus_Lore that had sent me the list of contradictions website, not you. Your name just got tied into my reply to Archeus_Lore contradictions list.

@ word. I am still waiting for you to explain why believers should claim respect, consideration and SPECIAL TREATMENT, why they should be considered to have ENDOWING VIRTUE simply because they believe in assininities . . . so far I have not seen a word about that, in fact, it is as if either you never understood the original post, or, you are evading it, or simply trying to tangentialize the argument.

@Archeus_Lore I was replying to the written part of the post, "Religion is, least of all, a virtue.", not the statement in the picture. As to what the picture says, .... let me see.

So you make a practice of replying to a post without even knowing what it is all about in the first place?

Are you still with us, or is it to much to ask for an explanation with regard to posting on a thread without even reading what it was all about.

@Archeus_Lore let me start with a word used: virtue -- behavior showing high moral standards.

Judges in American courts are called 'Honorable" and aside from corruption of the judge-person (which I have investigated, but that's another story), h iui s Judge has knowledge of the laws and follows the laws having a virtue. Faith by biblical definition is knowledge of the old testiment, which is the laws of government for Israel prior to 2000 years ago. Faith as a word has in 2000 years evolved in meaning other things. When these lawe knowledgeable people know laws and follows laws they consider themselves better than some people that are still only living by "the law of the Jungle ".

It follows simular to a court judge that would "demand " respect in the court session.

@Archeus_Lore no, Iij was replying to what was posted as written about. , "Religion is, least of all, a virtue."

@Archeus_Lore Religion as defined by biblical text 2000 years ago as helping widows and orphans while avoiding worldly corruption could be considered highly virtuous and for people that are not into helping widows and orphans while avoiding worldly corruption would be looked down upon.

You claim that you should have a similar status of that of a judge in a law court who has studied law for years on end? That is not a valid analogy . . . law does not hinge on the existence of some narcissistic dictator in the sky, who "loves" us, but condemns those who do not kiss his ass to hell. I have a god who is far more powerful than your god . . . . My god is a purple and white polka-dotted winged elephant that flies around the rings of Saturn with a unicorn stuffed up its ass, and you cannot prove that my god does not exist any more than you can prove that your "faith" is worth a plug nickel, so why should either you or I claim some special treatment, or claim any endowing virtue as a result?

@Archeus_Lore show your written laws as compared to the other persons written laws and then objectively see who follows the laws better and which laws are better to follow.

@Archeus_Lore then you would have a valid argument as to who has better endowed virtues

Person's "written laws"? So each person has written laws that they follow, and certain persons have written laws that are superior to those of others? And in what court of law are you going to make that fly?

@Archeus_Lore I do not have nor do I need written laws, I have knowledge of good and evil.

Some people are particular about following the laws as written by the Masonic lodge secret religion racist devil worship government of America hierarchy of Federal, state and local laws.

Just because something is a law and popular by people doesn't mean it is a good law.

@Archeus_Lore By viewing my actions in view of American laws I could be considered immoral. I have jaywalked and I have drove a vehicle past a stop sign with out making a complete stop. These are considered crimes, I would be considered a criminal because of violation of these laws. No one was harmed or injured during my jaywalking or "California " stop.

I'm still waiting on that answer . . . why should either you or I claim some special treatment, or claim any endowing virtue as a result?

@Archeus_Lore if you have a virtue of being extremely clean every day showering or bathing 5 times a day and you have certificate test to verify daily that you have no bacteria, debris or any sort of unclean substance on you. Would you want special treatment that no one is throwing shit on you even if you go to a shit throwing competition as a spectator?

Virtue? Virtue is a word often used by those who have something to hide.

@Archeus_Lore Virtue (Latin: virtus) is moral excellence. A virtue is a trait or quality that is deemed to be morally good and thus is valued as a foundation of principle and good moral being. Personal virtues are characteristics valued as promoting collective and individual greatness. In other words, it is a behavior that shows high moral standards. Doing what is right and avoiding what is wrong. The opposite of virtue is vice, another example of this notion is merit in Asian traditions and De (wikipedia )

@Archeus_Lore it would not be virtue to lie and falsely claim virtue.

People who are not virtuous often wear it as a badge. They want other people to see them as virtuous, but underneath, they know they are not virtuous, . . . all the more reason why they parade it about. My experience has been that people who go around proclaiming to the world they are one thing are often the exact opposite, because they are trying to compensate for it. It is like the guys that go around bragging about how tough they are, then when you see them in a fight they turn out to be wimps.

@Archeus_Lore i don't disagree that people fake virtue

I like that one

I would say that "virtue" is a word people often hide behind.

Got Google?

@Archeus_Lore

Got it. I chose this one. Another looked like Bernie Sanders.