Okay what about the claim of 140,000 invalid ballots in NV?

"Enough is enough" I really wish we could just dismiss the entire subject! This is extremely unprecedented to have such a feeling of mistrust of even the very election process. One of the Sen. did an excellent job fully explaining the general public perception at current. It's not something that will just go away without a lot more explanations and effective management from the top.

Some of the news you hear now is very deeply concerning. It's sometimes difficult to know who is telling the truth.

@Flowerwall If there's evidence, it should have been produced by now.
If there are 140K missing ballots in Nevada, where are they?
Who is making that claim?
Where is their evidence?
It's just another conspiracy theory.

45 started making claims of election fraud before the 2016 election, and he never stopped. Too many people bought his lies.

It didn't happen. Too many moving parts to be able to make it work and not have anyone talk about it.

If there is evidence of fraud, it needs to be presented, not "claimed".
Unless and until that happens, I'm not buying into any of it.

AND NOW CRUZ IS UP TRUMPS ASS LIKE NO ONE OTHER THAN LENNINGRAD
they have all turned to grifters and traitors

"Officials and representatives of both parties were there all the time. " You have not listened to eye witness testimony in hearings apparently.

"The courts have already looked into this. " Why have some courts blocked full forensuc audits? Why are audit logs missing in Antrim County where an audit was conducted?

@Flowerwall I am not going into the minutia of "Why Elvis lives" with you. Many of these cases were brought before Republican-appointed judges. Some of them by Trump himself. They concluded that there was insufficient evidence, period.

@273kelvin "Why are audit logs missing in Antrim County where an audit was conducted?" WELL YEAH! Makes sense evidence is MISSING.

Sen Ron Johnson of WI at federal hearing today, "There is no question there was fraud, it's a matter of how much." But go ahead and make false comparisons to Elvis.

But you insist on making Elvis comparisons and then don't want to give "One for the money, two for the show, three to get ready, four le'ts go"

@Flowerwall "Sen Ron Johnson of WI at federal hearing today, "There is no question there was fraud, "
SAID... SAID So f*cking what! I can say anything. like Elvis lives or I saw the Loch Ness Monster. It doesn't mean diddly.
I am damn sure that many senators swear that the earth is only 6,500 years old but that doesn't make it so. Proof m`lad is a long way from a politicians word.
He also "said" that this was to be an impartial hearing and then used the phrase "Russian interference hoax" so forgive me if I run for the salt cellar.

@273kelvin You must not have listenef to hearing. "Russian interference hoax" this was discussion FALSELY attributed.

@Flowerwall No that was right at the start (which tbh all I could take). The chairman opened with words like "Impartial" and then said something like "Russian election interference in the 2016 election hoax", A "hoax" that the FBI says was real. So I kinda lost interest after that.

@Flowerwall Meanwhile whilst Trump plays musical chairs with his staff and fires all none yes-man. Most of the DOJ, DHS and FBI sent to find non-existent fraud...
[nytimes.com]

@Flowerwall Okay let's apply Occam's razor on this.
On one hand, you have DHS and the DOJ saying it the election was fair. (Let's leave all the voter suppression by Texas, Florida, Georgia and other states plus the US postal service to one side for now). All court cases bar one minor win were lost.
On the other hand rapist Trump + minions. Say there was. Okay, some obscure physicist says so too.
Now let us look at Trump's honesty record.
Hillary is not in jail (31 hours of testimony and no case to answer)
No tax returns published.
"It will disappear like a miracle"
"No quid pro quo"

And if you take offence at the term "rapist" well over 80,000,000 Americans have said "No" to him and he is ignoring them. (24 cases of sexual assault so far)

@273kelvin I don't know what Trump is regard to being a rapist. Horrible crime. But so is voter fraud. We don't get to use one crime to justify committing others. If we wanted to put his moral character on trial that should have been done long ago.

Okay so where is the evidence from the investigation results? Has it been presented to the public? The public needs to see everything that counters what has been stated by witnesses. Where is it? We need transparency, and respect for the concerns of doubting voters. Using unclear rules regarding absentee voting in some places as done in WI, giving different sets of rules in different counties on who qualifies for absentee voting, does not imbue confidence from the public. The Supreme Court of WI PROVED ITSELF absentee voting rules WERE NOT CLEARLY DEFINED to the public. And explained differently in different counties. [jsonline.com] Previous to this flip of the rules, basically throwing out rule, that was not clearly explained to all, there were strict voter ID rules. I guess we find out AFTER THE ELECTION the rules changed. Convenient. Unclear rules disenfranchise and are unconstitutional. So the reality is WI SC proved with this judgement it's own judgement not being in favor of clearly defined rules BEFOREHAND the court itself is in a violation of the constitution (equal access).

@Flowerwall Remind me, which party was in control of WI? Oh yes, it was the Republicans.

@Flowerwall Okay since neither of us can find anything about the alleged "problem" 140000 NV votes. Let's talk about WI. What you are saying is that allegedly some counties had different absentee ballot rules than others. Oh, and... not exactly the Brinks job is it? Even if that were proved to be the case. That is a long way from fraud. A voter receives an application for an absentee ballot. They fill it in, they vote. From what I remember the problem stemmed around whether or not, election workers were allowed to fill in some missing parts of the ballot ID. They were but not all counties were aware of this. Hey, we are in the middle of a pandemic, it might be hard to get the right staff?
Occams razor again. Let us hypothetically consider how one might engage in enough voter fraud to sway the election via absentee votes in WI as you seem to imply that it was done. Firstly you would have to have thousands of addresses. No that would be too big, messy, expensive and too hard to conceal. Okay, you could maybe steal all the applications but what if the real people voted? So it would have to be dead people or those you knew for sure definitely would not be voting. The trouble with that one is again it is too easy to be found out. It is true that Right-wing news organisations and Trump's team have published lists of dead people voting but guess what? They turned out to be alive. Then you would certainly have to have lots of your guys on the inside? I mean you couldn't pull a job like that without them. It couldn't be Dems, too obvious. it would have to be Reps but how could you know that they wouldn't double-cross you or be undercover? Then you gotta have premises to work in, okay that parts not too hard but all those different people coming going because you would have to have lots of different signatures. And what about your crew? Can you imagine the number of different signatures you would need, let alone all the pens? How do you keep them sweet till January with Guilinani offering 100 grand for snitches?

Whilst we discuss this, please bear in mind that these elections have been signed off by the Republican state legislators in those states

@273kelvin I have tried to think along those lines, but I don't know. I don't have any preconceived ideas of who or how large the fraud is. I beleive what Sen Johnson said, what I posted already somewhere here. I think a lot this remains to be seen, but it does make Krebs look like he has tunnel vision. He appears out of step with the needs of voters.

@Flowerwall Well, you should think along those lines. For example, when someone talks to me about fake moon landings. I think Okay, well there would have had to be a very good probe because they left a reflector on there which still points this way. So that would need a big team. Then you have all the astronauts and possibly their families. Then countless technicians and NASA staff. Then the film crew and location. And they have all kept silent for 50 or more years. Or you can say that it happened but maybe some of the photos were less than real.
The amount of fraud that it would take to steal a US election is huge. Over 150,000,000 people voted. Even if you concentrated on just the swing states? that is still enormous. The smallest margin was Georgia with 20,000. So let us assume that Trump was winning by 50,000 - 100,000? You would have to generate 70,000 - 120,000 fake ballots to be sure. Any cursory examination of the logistics and possible methodology of this and it starts to look like the moon landings were a piece of cake.

Look I get that Trump supporters think he is the best thing since sliced bread but you have to concede that a vast amount of Americans think the very opposite. If you take the votes at face value? Then it is clear that many Republican voters became disenchanted with him. Whilst they voted for Republican representatives. They split the ticket and voted for Biden, 230,000 COVID deaths and record unemployment can do that to yer. Trump has been on our news almost constantly since his election (and I live in the UK). Maybe, just maybe, people had grown tired of listening to that voice, I know I have.

@273kelvin

@50 minutes.

There is more I want to write, but I'm having a physical ailment of some sort right now - just not feeling well. Review it. Watch the whole video. Put it in context.

@273kelvin I should let this whole topic go for a while, but it's naggingly on my brain and it appears I did somewhat mispeak with regard to WI ruling. I will explain it ar a future point if I feel inclined, but the main point it the rules were not clear cut, well defined beforehand. This created a giant Q mark to the point where some ballots are being contested at SC level. This should not be. It should be clearly stated. Everyone knew about covid. How it was going to be handled with regard to absentee voting need to be uniformly decided and broadcasr thoughout the state pre-election.

@Flowerwall Sorry but I have much better things to do than watch a three-hour forty-minute video of a Senate hearing. Much of which I suspect is centred the assumption of a steal. Where does this assumption spring from? Trump of course. The man who literally conned his fans out of their savings with Trump University. Yes, he did, look it up because the guy had to fork over a million bucks in compensation to them.
With his record in office, especially during COVID it kinda sounds like someone phoning the cops to report that someone stole their snowman. "But officer, it was there by the fire last night at 10.30 and when I woke up it was gone. Someone must have taken it".
As sadly I heard the news that America just past the 300,000 death toll and also the leaked emails about Trump's policy of "herd immunity". I am baffled why so many of you did vote for him.
[newyorker.com]

@273kelvin I said the mention was @ the 50 minute mark. You drag the play cursur to 50 minutes and watch for about 3 minutes.

If I remeber correctly it was all centered around real estate, Trump U. Some with the means probably took his info and became successful, but not everyone. Do you get to sue a uni if the career diesn't work out? Obviously RE is risk. Spending a fortune to attend, not good judgement in the first place. That's like suing all the ppl claiming to you rich through investing ir whatever other means are out there.

Can't respond to the other comment. I'm not aware.

The snowman analogy was amusing comparison, but you can't compare the election of Pres of US to something as inconsequential as a melted snowman. It's the fate of a nation, and in part, the world. A better comparison would be placing the Founding Fathers in the room and telling them about future technology and the entire concept of free and fair elections being non-existent. I don't think you'd get one laugh, or even a smirk. You would be left with defeated men with little hope for the future. (You might get some extreme gasps of disapproval when you talked about Trump for other reasons, but that's a different topic.) And also I use FF in the example, but really this about every American who wants freedom and democracy. We can't just say none of those things matter. There has been so much that has brought us to this point, all of American history, we cannot sacrifice this basic tenet of democracy in our society.

@Flowerwall The founding fathers would be shocked at this election. Not because it was rigged but because poor people, blacks and women voted.
Here is a link to Trumps brilliant COVID strategy
[politico.com]
Trump university for one Trump fan consisted of 3 infomercials with lifesize cutouts of the man himself stuck around the office. Then he was told to go home and look at his local real estate market. All for the princely sum of $25,000. The Judge ruled it was a scam and Trump had to pay out 1,000,000 back to his marks.
I watched the lawyer testify and then I looked at the court case to see if his evidence stacked up.
[factcheck.afp.com]
Let us also bear in mind that whilst all this has been going on. Russia has been hacking US defence and other dept computers. Oh and subject to his usual MO. Trump has said and done nothing about it. Makes you wonder if those reports of a watersports video that they have of him might not be true.

@273kelvin Just quickly adding the mention of Peter Navarro's 36 page report on the alleged voting irregularities. I haven't read your most recent response yet.

@Flowerwall Firstly, senate hearings are not the same a court of law. Rules of evidence, cross-examination, witness credibility and perjury laws do not apply. If one casts ones mind back to the McCarthy hearings, then you can see how it can become a kangaroo court.
Secondly, without being in the court where judges have made their decisions., based on the rules of evidence. The best we can do is take others word. Especially if those people have no self-interest or better still interest in the opposite conclusion than what they came to. Like for example Republican-appointed judges or Trump-appointed officials like Krebs and Bill Barr.
Let us also bear in mind how far ahead Biden was in the polls. Now polls are not votes and they have been spectacularly wrong in recent years but many had Biden ahead by more than 10 points. Considering Trump's disastrous handling of the COVID crisis, his 1st debate, and all the reports of "suckers and losers" "I don't get it, what was in it for them". I personally would be looking at Republican voter fraud, rather than Democrat.

@273kelvin So why this "Maricopa County Board of Supervisors will not comply with the subpoenas to turn over Dominion voting machines for a forensic audit. Instead, they are filing a complaint in Superior Court."?

@Flowerwall "Board of Supervisors Chairman Clint Hickman, a Republican, said Friday that the timeline on the subpoenas was unrealistic, the request was an intrusion into voters' privacy, and fulfilling them would require breaking state law."

@273kelvin "timeline on the subpoenas was unrealistic," WHAT exactly does THAT mean? I would assume that all that needs to be done is make available for audit. So please tell WHAT EXACTLY do thet need more time for? That doesn't sound right. Aren't the machines sitting idle somewhere? Isn't the burden on the entity who is performing audit to do all the work? All that has to be done is make available. It sounds like a stall tactic or worse. I don't think they are literally strapping to dollies and carrying down stairs, do you?

"intrusion into voters' privacy, and fulfilling them would require breaking state law." So now we have voting equipment that is above inspection? It can't be questioned? That's why it needs to go. It's not making norms for auditi possible. No good. Normal vote procedure, there is paper trail, audit logs, signatures, accountability. Here we have a equipment that cannot even be examined. Also forensic audit did not break state law in MI. How does AZ differ?

Also how are both of these issues being cited. If it's breaking state law why are they saying it'a an unreasonable timeframe? If you are breaking state law by complying then NO timefrane woukd ever be reasonable.

@Flowerwall Yeah, I mean stalling because of an audit what kind an excuse is that? Oh wait a minute (or 4-years) isn't that why we never got Trump's tax returns.
Tbh I do not know the ins and out but the judges did and if the subpoena was not complied to properly then a case is to answer. As yet no arrests have been made.
It is also a shame that the white house was not as forthcoming with witnesses during the impeachment,
At the end of the day, these are all small potatoes to what was the crapiest POTUS in US history and he lost, period.

@273kelvin "stalling because of an audit " yeah they may just want to stall until Jan 20 and continue telling the public he lost fair and square. (But without forensic audit actually completed)

@Flowerwall Okay let's talk about legal attempt to steal. Let's talk about removing 200 polling stations in Georgia. Let's talk about only allowing 1 drop-off box per county in Texas. Let's talk about removing sorting machines from the US postal service in the middle of a pandemic. let's talk about the disenfranchisement of Florida felons. Let's talk about the GOP setting up bogus drop boxes in CA.
So let's not talk about democrats stealing this election I'm done!

@273kelvin I'm not from the South and not familiar with any of these issues. Give links on each of these topics. Start new threads, but we are beyond a point where this is the main issue because elecrion has already passed.

so true thanks the voice of reason

exactly

Okay but will the SAME exact people always commit election fraud? Or different people? Are Dems above it all?

There was unconstiturional practices in place. Unequal application of absentee voting rules in the state. This is just one aspect of the problem.

@whiskywoman Well it was NOT advertised equally in the state as the an alternate to otherwise healthy people, which means unequal trearment under access to voting, unconstirutional practice! You can post 150 more childish pictures, but the law is governed by constiturion.

@Flowerwall and there is still no fraud

Sure. Keep telling yourself that. I don't usually spend much time debating teenagers.

And anyone who stifles discussion is trying to let dishonesty or mistrust reign.

@Flowerwall In this case you are delusional. That metaphorically speaking makes you the fool. If you want to justify overturning the election, by latching on to conspiracy theories that you want to be true, that make you the liar.

@Flowerwall that is what trump wants he wants you to believe his lies and distrust....that is his game...he is the dishonest one he is the liar and the cheat and the con and if you are sending money to help him he is pocketing it less than ten percent is going to the RNC . HE IS SPREADING LIES AND TRING TO DESTROY THE USA

@barjoe I never said overturn election. But proceed with thinking whatever you want as you prattle on about being delusional if it makes you feel somehow better.

@barjoe, @whiskywoman Sen Ron Johnson of WI at federal hearing today, "There is no question there was fraud, it's a matter of how much."

@Flowerwall ron Johnson is a fucking liar and a crook and a liar he is pandering to trump its lNOT NOT NOT FUCKING TRUE AND IT WONT BE PROVEN

@whiskywoman "crook" Okay prove this statement true.

@Flowerwall why you wouldn't believe it

@whiskywoman You won't prove it bcuz you have no evidence. That is what I suspect right now

@Flowerwall, @whiskywoman [urbanmilwaukee.com]

@barjoe I'm not an accountant. What about Pelosi blocking relief to the most needy she claims to serve in order to hurt Trump pre-election? That is the most audacious type of fraud there is, imo. [nypost.com] I do appreciate Sen Sanders honesty here in this article.

@Flowerwall What about? whataboutism personified First of all, the discussion was about Ron Johnson. If you had wanted to go for a valid 'what about' you'd have brought up Dianne Feinstein for an example of a crooked Democrat senator. You bring up NY Post, Bernie Sanders admitting Pelosi is a fraud. Remember when you say what about, it's like saying, yes that's right Ron Johnson is a crooked swindler but Nancy Pelosi is politically motivated and disingenuous. It's the problem with our political system, Mitch McConnell is just as bad. It's not election fraud, as in stealing votes, it's just flat out government gridlock. It's wrong.

@barjoe I'm not an accountant. I can't understand the first thing in the article that is posted. Why don't you break it down since you seem to understand it all?

@Flowerwall It's not that involved. I read your NY Post article and I agree with it. You don't have to read it is you don't want to. It basically says that he's suspected of insider trading, taking gratis from lobbyists, running a phony 501 (non profit) that he got an F from a conservative oversight group for lack of integrity and corruption. It's a long article, I'm sorry about that. I'd sit down and make a cliffsnote version for you but I'm shoveling snow every half hour and making hot chocolate bombs. This blizzard is tearing into I-95 corridor.

@barjoe Is that the big one in the NE? I saw on the news today. Glad that's not here right now. Those are not fun.

@Flowerwall It wasn't that bad in Philly. 7" of snow. We're at sea level. North of us got 18". Poor them. It is cold for Philly though 20° That's nothing for Wisconsin. It's all good. I like it. I'm downtown, there's stores I can walk to. I won't though. I dug my car out and I'm fully stocked with food.