Here's another for you @SeaGreenEyez

Let's talk about saving kids' lives. In this instance they look to be some or all black/brown kids.

I can't stand this aspect of Dem policy. Absolutely CANNOT STAND IT!

@Flowerwall

1. There IS a $100k reward for info leading to an arrest in the murder of these children.
2. How you could watch that and NOT see that the problem is an unbelievable lack of gun control is fuckin' bewildering. They even spelled it out for you and you just remained willfully ignorant, especially considering...
3. The "defund the police" budget cuts/reallocation of funds hasn't even been approved, let alone implemented, so it can in no way be blamed for the killings. You are so fuckin' surrounded in your echo chamber you can't see the truth staring you right in the face. Fuck, if you weren't so god-damned blind, you'd probably be a Democrat.
   [usatoday.com]

@JeffMurray Listen I already had the gun control debate taking your position and I LOST. You can't get the guns out of criminals hands. Hate to inform you. You see how drugs are out of control? When you get the drugs out of the cities, then come back and talk about gun control in the cities. It won't happen. Drug deaths are on the RISE and crime is on the RISE and Dems want to dismantle large parts of the police force, while taking away law abiding citizens guns! The timing is SO BAD, I can't even believe it's an actual position people accepting as having any validity at all. But you yourself not only accept it, you appear to embrace it wholeheartedly. This is why I realky Q what ppl actually stand for around here.

Tell me did the $100k lead to any arrests? The residents in the cities become so terrorized from the violence noone knows. It's terrorism right in the cities. You are so quick to dismiss this truth, and the cold blooded murder of our ppl right in our vety own cities. It's a shame Dem have grown so accustomed to this level of violence, they just don't care when their party members have ideas that are just REALLY BAD and won't protect the very ppl, children, in their served areas.

@SeaGreenEyez You are going to fix crime by taking away the police snd letting everyone just kill themselves with drugs? GO SMOKE ANOTHER ONE.

@Flowerwall

1. If you lost the gun debate to someone who simply said "then criminals will be the only people with guns," that speaks more to how poorly you debate than anything else. Also, you can reduce the number of guns and put restrictions on how they can be sold and owned, etc. To claim it's impossible is idiotic and patently false considering advanced liberal democracies elsewhere in the world have done it with great success. Furthermore, how fuckin' stupid is the claim, "Well, if we can't get guns away from every single bad guy, then why even try to do anything at all?" We can't eliminate every drunk-driving death, but we have laws in place to try. We can't keep every single child from being kidnapped and never returned, but we still send out Amber alerts. Plus a million more examples that if you're too dumb to think of on your own, you're probably too fuckin' stupid to recognize defeats your argument if you read them.

[theguardian.com]

2. I LOVE how you conveniently ignored the part where I made you look like a completely uninformed buffoon with the regurgitated nonsense you saw in your echo chamber on Facebook. Really, you can't admit you're wrong about anything?

3. Drug deaths are on the rise, and that's precisely one of the things that could be helped with funds reallocated from the police to other social services. If you looked at the data honestly, you'd know that harsher penalties and police enforcement doesn't do any good while actual programs for addiction and decriminalization work wonders. But I guess if you're a hammer-wielding Republican moron, everything's a nail. That's the saying, right?

@JeffMurray Thanks for assuming I debate poorly when you weren't even there. I made a lot of arguements you all make around here, but you are all mainly wrong though you refuse to see it. But I'm speaking to the same person who justifies $70k to $200k private security for ONE person then proceeds to COMPLETELY IGNORE people terrorizing inner city residents and killing children ( I asked, "Tell me did the $100k lead to any arrests? " You FAILED TO ANSWER.) And the fact that you are okay with that says a lot.

BTW your use of profanity and insults, no matter how much you wish it does, doesn't make you sound one bit more rational. In fact, it's quite the contrary. You sound like an out of control, short-on-logic sheep.

Alteast you admit drug deaths are on the rise. Now the next step is to realize criminals who sell drugs have guns and DON'T FOLLOW THE LAW. So the ppl who will be effected by gun laws are the ones who are probably the ones likely to be the victims. Gun control is illogical until drug use and related deaths have decreased by large percent like, let's say 75%. Once that's happened THEN talk about gun control.

@Flowerwall
I don't know if the reward led to arrests, but how is that relevant?
Just like always you set up nonsensical hurdles we need to jump with arbitrary numbers before we can talk about gun control. Our claim "Now, in the wake of a tragedy, is not the time to talk about gun control". You just think of another problem and pull the number 75% out of your ass and say that's what we need before a gun control discussion. And even if we got there, you and your ilk would just set up another hurdle that is completely irrelevant. I showed you other advanced liberal democracies have done it and you ignored the facts of the matter because you want to stay ignorant and comfortable in your echo chamber.
And of course I wasn't there, that's why I used an if/then statement based on what you told me. And it's still true. No one should lose on that side of the debate unless they're uninformed, moronic, or both.
You still haven't admitted the deaths you posted about have absolutely nothing to do with defunding police, but that's not at all surprising.
Finally, I don't care how I come across to idiots. Me proving you wrong isn't for you, it's for people on the fence that still have a chance at being able to evaluate arguments and separate good ones from bad ones. If a 'fuck' derails them so bad they can't remain objective, they were bound to fail anyway. So, to that end, you're a fuckin' idiot.

@SeaGreenEyez So you have lived/worked in the inner city?

@Flowerwall Another irrelevant question. You're trying to elicit anecdotal evidence/experience (in the hopes of using that against her??) as if that is at all relevant to the formulation of a sound and valid argument. Guess I was right about you not being able to debate your way out of paper bag...

@SeaGreenEyez I didn't know that trying to ask an irrelevant gotcha question that inadvertently elicits an answer that makes you look like an unbelievable douche bag who has to eat his own words made a sound, but there it is. Huh. Learn something new every day.

@JeffMurray "makes you look like an unbelievabl"e douche" Are you a grown man or a teenager? WHO talks like THIS outside of midfle/high school?

There are a lot of points I would like to further discuss with regard to specific concerns you brought up, but I can't even engage a dialogue with you due to your immaturity and histrionics. You've done nothing to further your case in my mind. In fact you have shown me that ONCE again around here ppl are incapable of having an educated discussion without resorting to attacks and are incapable of making convincing arguements for their viewpoints.

@SeaGreenEyez Thanks for sharing your work history. I hope you don't do cat memes when you are dealing in a professional setting! It sort of detracts from the seriouness of the situation, doesn't it? Doesn't do much for constructive dialogue either. I would think someone with the degree of qualifications you claim to have would be a much better skilled communicator. Your use of silly cat pictures as we discuss the unsolved murder of children came across as grossly insensitive to the subject at hand.

@Flowerwall Like I said, my replies aren't for you; don't give a fuck what you think of me. In my eyes, you're nothing but a dumb, Trump-loving, anti-vaxing cunt. You have shit reasoning skills and resort to nonsensical talking points that fool only the lowest common denominators in our society.

@JeffMurray Thanks for the continued name calling? But I would have much more appreciated a level headed, grown up conversation. "lowest common denominators in our society" Yes, this is how your continued use of profanity and name calling come across as. I am sure you can communicate with some degree of tact. Try harder!

@Flowerwall I stopped watching that nonsense propaganda when he said "very rare mass shooting". There are routinely more mass shootings than there are days in the year, i.e. we average more than one mass shooting PER DAY.
We have had 7,500-11,00 gun murders per year since [at least] 2012.

@JeffMurray It's even worse than Colin said here. We are trying to solve inner city violence by weakening the police forces nationwide! His point though on gun control is 2009 Chicago had highest murder rate while at the same time most restrictive gun laws in the nation. "Gun control is a political placebo designed to look like sympathy when in their hearts there is only apathy".

@Flowerwall How do you explain why it has worked in other advanced liberal democracies?

@SeaGreenEyez " Sadly, these things speak much more about you than who you're belittling/critiquing." Who did I belittle/critique?

Memes are fine. Cat memes are fine. I just lose patience when someone is taking a lighthearted tone while we speak on a serious subject. I have not seen anything that has convinced me that defund makes sense. On whate did you base your decsion to be a staunch supporter of defund? What are you thinking of that convinces you with cerrainty defund is the answer?

With all of the work you do regarding police brutality in various places you must have a skewed view of where the biggest challenges are for ppl in the most disadvantaged areas. You work with police brutality so you see it everywhere. It's not an accurate reflection of reality, however.

@JeffMurray Be more specific.

@Flowerwall I don't know what you're confused about. We have almost no restrictions on guns and we have the highest rate of gun deaths and mass shootings among advanced liberal democracies. Other countries that have enacted varying degrees of gun control have reduced those statistics, i.e. gun control has worked in countries all over the globe. If you're making the assertive claim that gun control will not do anything to reduce gun violence or mass shootings in the US, you should be able to support that claim considering all available evidence suggests the contrary.
That would be like me saying if I jumped off a building I would float to the ground safely and you would reply that everyone else who has ever jumped off a building succumbed to gravity and was injured or died and that I would need to provide some evidence that my assertive claim had merit (or prove it by jumping off a building).

[vox.com]
[vox.com]

@SeaGreenEyez
Don't you love how he asked an irrelevant question about whether you had lived in the inner city, apparently attempting to set up a version of an Ad Hominem (you're too far removed from the problem to have a valid argument) only to be made to look like an idiot because of the assumptions he made about you, then tried to recover with an Ad Hominem anyway (you're too close to the problem, so your argument must be biased)? Like bronze tools to australopithecus it appears logic and reason are two tools he does not have access to.

@JeffMurray I was attempting to say far too removed? That's funny. You read minds too apparently.

My point is get the guns out of criminals hands first. Get the drugs out, how much crime is committed for THAT reason? Then some common sense restrictions might be in order, but nothing too restrictive.

Regard your example,of falling out windows, you think if your e in a room with a criminal he wouldn't push you out (no guns remember?) and if the police take an hour to respond, or don't respond at all it's okay becuz the criminal needs some level societal support and enforcing the law is secondary to that. And even if you are just a young child trying to play outsude and your murdered by said criminal, you were just collateral damage, sorry. NO! NO! NOT RIGHT! Children deserve safety in their neighborhoods. Children should be able to live in a society where they are guaranteed certain things.

@Flowerwall

1. We don't need to read minds, just the words you write. You essentially did say it. Are you so used to bullshit falling out of your mouth you don't even remember what you said a couple posts ago? Here's a refresher, "You work with police brutality so you see it everywhere. It's not an accurate reflection of reality, however." You told her what she sees isn't reality because she lives it every day.

2. Again with the nonsensical hurdles. Your parameters make no sense. Obviously guns get into criminals hands in many different ways, so it's idiotic to say you can't enact any gun control measures until you get all the guns away from criminals when criminals can continue to get guns that are still available without restriction. Do you really not get how stupid that is? Do you really not get how stupid you look saying it?
   And get the drugs out? Who are you, Nixon? You realize that was one of the biggest fuckin' failures in American history, right? If it still think we can "get the drugs out" you may just be the dumbest person I've ever talked to.

3. Who the fuck ever said no guns? That aside, no one knows what the fuck you're trying to say. Apparently you're just trying to change the subject because I tore your argument to shreds. You claimed gun control wouldn't work. I asked you for your evidence because everywhere around the world it does. You started taking about police responding to someone getting pushed out a window. You sound like a fuckin' idiot. Stay on topic and present your evidence, or shut the fuck up.

@JeffMurray Here we go with the f word and stupid, you are sounding more and more desperate. Why don't you stick to THIS topic and not worry what I said in response to another person. Thanks.

What I see as stupid is how there is always a push with Dem for MORE taxes, but then a tendency to offer LESS services. Take a look at the big metro areas in the nation. Taxes are sky high and now they will not even offer basuc standards of policing. And when crime is high and everyone needs them the most! They even try to sell the idea it's being done for the right reasons. What they are doing is stealing from all citizens of this nation, stealing law and order. You don't want me to keep going on because I am going to post videos that show just out of hand this all has gotten. Democrats need to get their priorities in order!

@Flowerwall
Pleads to stay on topic. Immediately changes topics.

I'm done with you. I think anyone reading has a good understanding how worthless your arguments are by now.

@JeffMurray Well you are right " If you still think we can "get the drugs out" it seems stupid. Certainly does become QUITE difficult when you have an open border. So are Dems trying to solve problems or create more?

It's fine if you are done. I still have a couple points to make, though. Here's the answer to your gun control arguement. [politifact.com]

It already has. What happens when the pandemic money runs out? We all just shrug our shoulders and think a 50% or 25% increase in murders is okay, just the new norm?

@Flowerwall I question even short hypotheticals and your opening post asked a long hypothetical:

“What happens if another Republican is later elected President and the Mayors then decide they don't want to work with the federal govt because of that fact irrespective of how crime is effecting the residents?”

It already has?

@yvilletom The point I am making is police depts have been defunded, Biden is doling out pandemic funds to cover this huge uptick in crime, but what is the long range plan? Right now it seems these leaders are flying by the seat of their pants on an issue that can be truly life or death for those who are the victims of crimr. Defund is not an even remotely good idea when crime is going up. Why are ppl acting like it is?.

@Flowerwall Thinking people, such as the ACLU for instance, know defunding was a person’s emotional response to stress. Don’t leap onto a metaphorical horse before it has a saddle. The ACLU’s website probably links to it.

@yvilletom I don't think $1BIL in slashed funds can be classified as an emotional reaction, and that's just NYC police budget.
[forbes.com]

@Flowerwall You certainly are reacting emotionally.

@yvilletom And somehow MY emotional reation factors into the wider issue? I don't think it does. The forbes article states 13 cities are defunding police. What is the long term plan? Do they want the federal govt to control us all?

And yes, this issue of defund is a huge thorn in my side because I can get on board with some of these Dem ideas, A LOT of ideas. For instance, the newer proposals to increase access to education, I don't know all the details, but for the most part I can get behind these ideas. It's THIS ISSUE, defund, that is a big giant NO in my mind.

@Flowerwall Alright, defund is “a big giant NO” in your mind.

Please identify what can be a YES in your mind.

@yvilletom A lot of what Dems stand for. I definately think govt can and should be a tool to help our people prosper. But we also live in reality and not every idea to "help" is going to have that effect or be the best idea for the intended purpose. Defund is one such idea, atleast at the current time, given our current reality, it's a horrible idea.

@Flowerwall Try again for a YES. The ACLU has some ideas.

@yvilletom Kinda jealous of how easily you got him to shut up. I'm impressed.