Yes, it has been a very difficult issue to research. I was not familiar with prescriptivism v. descriptivism until you mentioned it, thank you. I might have had to pursue that route had I not been able to prove him wrong otherwise.

[grammar-monster.com]?

[en.m.wikipedia.org]

[grammarphobia.com]

The fundamental issue, of course, is that people need to stay out of other people's business. There is way too much of that going on and it is at the root of some of our major problems.

But I gotta ask, are you the British gentleman educated in Kenya? My money says no.

@LovinLarge I'm neither Kenyan nor much of a gentleman, stone the flamin' crows.

Oh, and gerunds are verbs that act as nouns and always end in 'ing' ergo 'long lived' and 'lived' are not gerunds.

@waitingforgodo The truth is that I admire anyone who is accomplished in any field, and I don't just mean people who have been hugely successful but just someone who has pursued a particular area of study such that their opinions can be relied on. What is a real pleasure is encountering people who have developed their knowledge base in multiple areas, like yourself. You are a very interesting character and perhaps one day you will want to tell us more about yourself. Or not. Anyway, I always appreciate your input even if I don't always understand it. Thank you.

@LovinLarge knew yerd like that prescriptivism descriptivism reference.

Yep, yer got it, I'm opinionated.

@waitingforgodo But the distinction is whether an opinion is based on knowledge like yours are. You don't pipe up about every issue that arises, you wait for the issues for which you have a background. On websites like this one I like to distinguish between who is just running their mouth and who is injecting actual knowledge into the thread. Those are the people who interest me because they are ones I can learn from. Take Gwen, 70 years experience and still active in her field. This is someone with something to offer, just like you. Okay, I won't embarrass you anymore, just don't be a stranger please.

@waitingforgodo Sorry, I know that is not a gerund. I changed it, but you get my meaning.

He makes me sick.

Look after your English.

@Ryo1 I always do. You do the same.

@fishline79 The British/Devon/Jannar English - yes.

@Ryo1 I'm sorry, but I don't understand your comment.‍

Yes, that has already been said, as in "Are you THE King Charles! By the way, congratulations, you appear to be the only person who has not disputed my simple assertion.

@fishline79 ROFL!

@fishline79 Perhaps because I am Kenya educated, so I speak good, old fashioned English.

@Petter Ain't that "thee" truth!

@fishline79 Thou art indeed "thee" oracle.

So far you are the only person who presented a valid argument, but it's not quite the same. As in "valet" (valet) and valet (valay) the English languages has a very diverse etymology. Words with a foreign origin are subject to differing pronunciations, but "the" is one word, and an article instead of a noun, and it has two different pronunciations depending on context, and I don't think insults are necessary in this context.

True gentlemen who have a way with words are not so common anymore. This website was not the same before you joined and we are all the better for it.

@fishline79 I refer you to your own insult to @LovinLarge: "Give me a break. Go bask in your ignorance."

@anglophone Can't you even come up with an original insult?

@fishline79 Please feel free to keep flaunting your defects of personality.

@fishline79 In Yorkshire, England, the definite article is shortened to a single 't'. The remaining 't' is pronounced so subtly it's barely there. Don't embarrass yourself any further, mate.

@Ryo1 I wouldn't chose Yorkshire as an example of good English! And, what do you mean "a single t" ?The word only has a single t. Do you mean, when written, the article "the" is spelled using only the letter "t" ?

@fishline79 Careful. Your overbearing arrogance is on display. /@Ryo1

@anglophone What the hell are you talking about. Is this being written by A.I.? What do my supposed "personality defects" have to do with anything? Does anybody who disagrees with you have "personality defects". One of my best friends is from Yorkshire and, I assure you she is quite satisfied with my personality. Maybe you don't like "Yanks". I have lived in England, Holland and Spain.

@fishline79 You are clearly blind to your own defects of personality. Your rudeness and intellectual arrogance towards @LovinLarge and @Ryo1 is plain for everybody except your to see. You also appear to suffer from a cognitive disability.

@fishline79 You'll just have to do more research on the English language, mate. It is spoken in 10 major countiries and it is all written and spoken differently by the people living in those countries. And if you include the dialects spoken in each of those countries... it's deep, man! Reflecting history, culture, etc., etc. There is no such thing as 'good English' or 'correct pronunciations'.

Play nice. Lol

@Ryo1 That small fact about the number of countries appears to be lost on @fishline79.

@anglophone Hence ignorance and arrogance. I wish he'd done more homework before he came on... Over and out.

@Ryo1 Their iz a wikked of mi that wood reelly like two poak funn at @fishline79. ( I wonder if he will recognise that I am lampooning him.)

@fishline79 What you're missing is that we know that if you are this inflexible on what to most people is a fairly minor issue, you must be even moreso on matters of actual significance.

@anglophone Did you see below, now he's not sure he's an agnostic because of how ignorant and stubborn WE all are!

@LovinLarge I missed that. Thanks for the heads up.

@LovinLarge Do you think I should tell @fishline79 that I am CELTA qualified?

(Certificate in English Language Teaching to Adults for those here who do not recognise that abbreviation.)

@anglophone Well, I think he felt very threatened by Gwen's credentials because he was sure nasty to her.

@LovinLarge I wonder if he suffers from gnosiophobia.

@anglophone I think he is just stuck. I think he doesn't have much going on so he obsesses about trivialities. In law, we call this type of thing "de minimis". Trouble the Court with such a minor matter and you will pay the price with your career.

@LovinLarge Are you the official spokesperson for "Agnostic"? I am confused about the level of hatred with which you and several others reacted to my message. It was intended only to be informative and educational, and it was not an un-informed opinion. I even backed it up with proof (for which you chose to chide me for not being authentic, although it was). You act like you own this forum and have suggested that I have no right to participate, but I have been visiting and posting on "Agnostic" for about 6-7 years and was never received with such vituperative comments. You even criticize the way I write, although I always proof-read my texts before sending, except on one or two occasions, like using the word "notified" instead of "notarized" (A typo. due to being in a hurry). Have I said something in the past that has occasioned such hatred? If I have, let me know what it was and I will apologize if I was wrong. I plan to keep contributing since the management has not censured me, but I will always attempt to be as truthful and honest as I know how. Peace to you and yours, and Dog be with you.

@fishline79 I'm not going to read your insane ramblings. Get yourself the help that you so desperately need and stop imposing your delusions on other people. Not one person in the world cares what you think of their grammar so move on to something that actually matters. Stop harrassing me, you incredible nuisance.

@Ryo1 Tell that to any BBC announcer. I doubt they will agree with you.

@fishline79 Wrong. Like it or not, the BBC allows multicultural English, including what we call 'multicultural London English'. I admire you in a sense for you're sticking to your guns, but you really ought to stop now, because you're doing nothing but embarrassing yourself by exhibiting your lack of knowledge about the English language. You're also demonstrating that self-righteousness is incurable.

@Ryo1 I was told many years ago that if I wanted to hear properly spoken English, I should listen to the BBC. Having said that, my original comment wasn't meant to be about dialect, or vernacular speech, but simply phonetic pronunciation of "the", relative to it's context. If that is being self-righteous, then any English teacher is guilty of arrogance if they teach the language by the book. If it is self righteous to be correct, I am guilty, and I will continue to cringe every time I hear a public speaker say "thuh apple"!

@fishline79
'I was told many years ago...'
Exactly, mate. Languge is fluid. It changes over time. What you were told many years ago may not be relevant to what goes on today. There is a lot more to learning a language than learning just grammar and pronunciation. If you have love for the English language, leave all the silly arguments you've had here now and dig deeper, and extend your knowledge and experience into linguistic science. Over and out.

@fishline79 Ooh, we have all really yanked your chain, haven't we? Chortle!

@anglophone He's such a dupe! It was the way he spoke to Gwen, who's actually an expert in the field, that sent me over the edge. Imagine trying to control how other people speak, even people on tv, especially when your own grasp of the language is questionable. I can't even imagine spending 5 minutes thinking about someone pronouncing things differently than I.

Oh, yeah, "Grammar Monster" is the last word! Give me a break. Go bask in your ignorance.

@fishline79 I'll remind you again that you have provided no sources for the rules you made up and insist everyone follow.

@LovinLarge Since you chose to ignore the proof I sent, here it is again. Maybe you don't understand the phonetics.

@fishline79 I didn't ignore it, I explained to you why it is not credible evidence. Pathetic that you don't understand how to cite evidence. Even I am embarrassed for you.

Congratulations. That is a fine piece of obfuscation A.K.A., horse shit.

Call me a snob, but I prefer to call it "preservationism" I like language, and take pride in using it properly. I don't think I can fend off evolution but, while our language still has rules, I prefer adhering to them.

@fishline79

Be happy. And let others be happy.

@fishline79 I fully understand what you mean. I was taught corn is raised, children are reared, gay was happy, care free before it become - gay. A stupid person was dumb because they couldn't think of anything to say. Now, some stupid person has gotten the stupid dumb words mixed up. Its just stupid to be calling people dumb, especially when its because of something they said. Wicked is good for some people.

I am sure there's a lot more that I cannot think of. But, I have recently come across a new one to me, woke. And, it doesn't have anything to do with waking up out of sleep.

@yvilletom Happy "Valentine's day".

@yvilletom, @Word And your point is...? Who says you can't be happy?

Accepted by whom? It's not by me. That's not evolution in my book. It's devolution. Saying "thuh" elephant requires a glottal stop that should not be necessary. It breaks the rhythm of the language, and makes it unnecessarily awkward. I expect it from the average person who doesn't know better, but I cannot accept it from a Network anchor.

@fishline79 The first article I looked said what I told you about the evolution of language, I'll keep trying to find that article again. But since, I have found others that agree with you and still others thst say to use the long e of the next word begins not necessarily with a vowel but with a vowel sound. The long e can also be used to stress the word and I can think of good examples like that. My own personal opinion is that because there is disagreement on point, I like to go with common usage and you rarely hear anyone use the long e. Regardless, it is not something I would allow myself to stress over.

[grammar-monster.com]

[merriam-webster.com]

[dictionary.cambridge.org]

[englishclub.com]

[grammarphobia.com]

@LovinLarge

@fishline79 Who is Lisa Mojsin?

@fishline79 This video, and your post about 'the', are useful for people who are learning English as a foreign language (basic grammar), but not for native speakers of English. You and the others who commented here are talking about English at different levels and from different perspectives, hence they go in parallel - forever.

@fishline79 Can you identify the source of the rule you've referenced regarding the pronunciation of the word "the" please? It is not a grammatical rule but there are enough dictionary references to it for it to have come from somewhere.

@LovinLarge That's correct, like when a letter is silent, as in "Thee" honest truth.

@LovinLarge, @Gwendolyn2018 You are all proving my point. I was educated when there was more emphasis on rules of grammar and pronunciation. It would guess that the majority of those who respond negatively to my comments (which are correctly observed) are significantly younger, and products of our politically correct system of education in which the paramount rule is "Don't criticize the students, or correct their mistakes, as it may stigmatize them. It amazes me that virtually everybody who responded to my comments did so with a negative attitude. I submit that it is a way to rationalize their ignorance and mask the fact that they have been badly educated. Of course none of this matters to them or anybody else unless, maybe they want to present their resume to the editors of the Washington Post. This has been an interesting exercise but I have only learned what I already knew. The rest of you can bask in your ignorance and continue blithely writing grammatically incorrect "tweets" like Donald Trump. And he has no excuse. He's my age!

@Ryo1 I see. So it's OK for native English speakers to use poor diction, but not for people who are learning English! Thanks for enlightening me.

@fishline79 No, people responded negatively to your post because your post is wrong. You've identified no sources for your rules because there aren't any, in fact my sources clearly say you're wrong. You don't get to decide whether people speak properly unless you can prove it.

It is okay to be wrong, but it is not okay to be rude like you were to other contributors. That was unnecessary and unacceptable. It is up to you whether you learn anything from this thread. I did.

@LovinLarge He's lost it - hopeless. Don't waste your time. Lol

@Gwendolyn2018 Additionally, who gives an unsolicited "lesson in English grammar" to other adults, particularly without a valid reference to substantiate what you claim are rules? Anyway love, thank you for all of the valuable information. You were the true educator today, like most days.

@LovinLarge That is my point. Nobody uses long E because they don't know any better. That doesn't mean it's right. I am looking at it from an academic standpoint, not a social one. Languages are an exact science That doesn't mean they can't be improperly used by people who are inadequately educated. I am simply stating the rules. Do with them what you want. It isn't a crime, but it's not English. Why is everyone so defensive? I guess I hit a nerve.

@fishline79 Until you can prove that such a rule exists, it doesn't.

@Gwendolyn2018 So what. You SHOULD say "thuh", but only before a word beginning with a consonant! That's my point! HELLOOOH ! Jeez. Where did you get your degrees. I don't care if you have 98.6 degrees. You're WRONG! Maybe those professors with PHDs are just too polite to tell you. That's also part of the problem. As you can see by this very revealing thread, everybody is afraid to offend someone.

@Gwendolyn2018 Perhaps you don't have enough intelligence to understand what I am saying. As Fred Astaire said, "Let's call the whole thing off.

@LovinLarge Webster's Dictionary of the English Language, Encyclopedic Edition. And I was being very cordial until people started insulting me, and even then I held back. Perhaps I am not an Agnostic because if this thread is any indication, this is the most ignorant and stubborn group I have ever encountered. If you read my original post, you will see that everything I said is correct. You can apologize if you want but I know you won't. Anyway, I did send you proof, but here's more, very succinctly stated.

@fishline79 That's not quite how it works. The source is not identified (except by you) and is undated, in fact your version is so old that it appears to be out of print. The current Webster's Dictionary says differently. You've also supplied only a portion of the full entry. A single dictionary entry is not definitive on issues of grammar. Your evidence is not credible.

The only one who has anything to apologize for is you and you will never dig yourself out of the grave you dug today even if you do. And if you don't know your own position on religion, why are you even here?

@LovinLarge O.M.G. What do you want, a notified copy? Don't bother to apologize. You don't have the integrity anyway. You wouldn't accept if the "Librarian of Congress" certified it.

@fishline79 I didn't make up the guidelines for credible evidence, you ignoramus. There's no link between your copyright page and your definition page, Einstein. Sure, I should apologize because you posted false information and won't even acknowledge it when proven wrong.

Your "long lived" claim was even more ridiculous than your "the" claim, both of which I proved wrong with credible evidence. You're that guy who can't get along with anyone because you are so unreasonable. Just an old man who can't handle change and whose art degree doesn't qualify you to lecture anyone on grammar. Now fuck off you POS, everyone is sick to death of what a moron you are. You shouldn't even be allowed to use the word "integrity".

By the way, it's a notarized copy not notified, Librarian of Congress doesn't require quotation marks, "choose" and "chose" are two different words and you desperately need to learn how to paragraph. The truth is that you are barely fucking literate.