I am at odds about the gay couple and the bakery that turned them away. I know the law says they should not discriminate. But damn it I was in business once, and would not for one minute, put up with throwing out anyone I didn't want to do business with. Once told a woman I didn't have a thing to sell her because I felt she had been rude to me. Some feedback would be appreciated.
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18 comments
Feel free to reply to any comment by clicking the "Reply" button.You people are so thick headed ,this issue in part is not about serving or selling customers anything . This is about the refusal to CREATE or MAKE some thing ,If you read anything on this, the baker is now going to stop making wedding cakes which is perfectly legal Any body that thinks you can force any one to make any thing is ridiculous.His legal team is describing him as a cake artist ,so in other word you people think an artist by law should be forced to create a work of art against his wishes
HarrySlick
Level 7
Dec 12, 2017
1
What is the red icon that keeps being on my post?
HankSherman
Level 8
Dec 11, 2017
0
I too was in the business of sales and some people are born ignorant and rude. I did my best to live up to my belief system in these situations and it was not easy at times. In addition there were people I disliked but I treated them as fairly as any other person and it is my belief that if you are in a public business you treat every person the same.
Marine
Level 8
Dec 11, 2017
0
Thank you for your reply. I bow to the bigger man. While I certainly tried to not offend anyone when I was a business owner, I did set some rules. A customer was not allowed to abuse my employees, and for damn sure were allowed to abuse me. My employees were not allowed to abuse the customer. All complaints came directly to me. Being in business was pleasent, fun, and a daily joy for me, and my customers that I did business with
Whats with the red icon?
From my understanding the lawsuit came not from the fact that they wouldn't bake the cake ,but the bakery released their full names. The family began getting death threats and they were fearful that their children would be taken away from them.
Kojaksmom
Level 8
Dec 11, 2017
2
Thank you for that information. I am looking at this situation, and it dazzles me that in the beginning of this whole thing, I read about (I think) the mother of one of the men, posting that her son had just had what should have been one of the most wonderful days, ruined because of the way he had been treated. That her son and his to be spouse, had wanted to have a cake made, had been insulted by a baker, and were devestated. I posted what I thought would be comforting advise. That they should not let someone like that small, petty person have so much control in their life. To laugh at who, and what he was, and go to a baker that would appreciate their business. I was counseled by lawyers, got called a bigot, and it seemed only racist and bigots agreed with me, and only from the point of "listen to the fags whine". I am going to leave it here, see what happens. Thank you again.
By making the baker create somthing against his wishes is taking away his rights as well . So by giving the buyer this right you are then taking away the owners rights . so what is accomplished .Also he did not refuse to do business with these people they could have purchassed any thing that was allready made .
HarrySlick
Level 7
Dec 10, 2017
3
The couple was not being discriminated against, just the cake they wanted. If the baker had posted a sign saying "we reserve the right not to bake cakes with messages we disagree with" that covers everyone.
Unicorn1824
Level 7
Dec 10, 2017
3
Thank your for your reply, never did know the whole story. Just dah seen a post on line where (I think the mother had post that her sons' day had been ruined. I in turn posted something to effect that it was a shame that they would let someone like that ruin their day, have a laugh at such a small and stupid person, and find a baker happy to have their business. Got jumped on bad by some angry sounding people.
I'd prefer that the baker be required to make the cake, and that if you are in business you have to play by the rules and serve everyone, but do you want someone to be forced to make an important cake just because they're forced to?
The LGBT community is fighting for their rights. They just want and deserve to be treated like everybody else. Remember we are human beings who respect other human beings.
sassygirl3869
Level 9
Dec 10, 2017
3
Thank you for your reply. I do understand, have faught my whole adult life for short, fat, bald, foul mouthed mens rights . I'm being sitarical, but really, can everybody expect a law to change how they are treated? Just not sure that being treated with respect can be a right. If I don't like the way I'm treated, I have the right to advertise, protest in front of that business, call all my friends and family , and I have the right to not do business with them. Thank you for allowing me to vent on your post.
Think of it from a historical situation. The Civil Rights Act of 1964 stated that businesses could not discriminate on the basis of sex, religion, national origin, or race. Do you think this was wrong? Would you have accepted a business declaring their opposition to serving or hiring black people was religious in nature (which many people back then did use religion to support segregation) and therefore it should be acceptable if they discriminate?
NerdyTeacher
Level 3
Dec 10, 2017
1
Thank you for your reply. In 1964, I was 21, and raised in a small town in Texas, I was baptist, no blacks at my school, and did'nt even realize women could be queer. Sad, I know, but that was the mind set. And I don't think that the laws have changed that mind set very much. Look at what we have in our government, and as a president, and his supporters. And I blame the religions, and religious, for maintaining that mindset. I firmly believe that when our country finally comes apart, it will be the fault of religions.
We haven't changed the mindset of everyone, but we did force integration against people's wills. A sociologist in the 70's (I believe) estimated that we would change society within one generation of integrated schools. For the most part, that person was right. I think back to the late 80's where white girls in my class were talking about how beautiful black babies were and how they hoped to have one someday. That type of talk would have impossible had we not forced schools and businesses to integrate.
With a third or better of ourcountry still holding on to phobias, though progress has been made, religion has, as allways held back progress in learning. And women, I think, have usually been first to accept, adapt, change, and hopefully lead our country into a more loving, careing, peacefull world. I probably won't be around to see it happen(though I can always hope). But it men don't blow up the country first, I think they will get the job done.
If you own a public business, and you discriminate about whom you chose to serve, then should you be in business? We’re not talking about rude people. This is tantamount to refusing to serve African Americans, Phillipinos, American Indians, Mexicans.... Would you refuse to serve them? It’s the fact that it references a whole class of people that’s the issue.
Gatovicolo
Level 8
Dec 10, 2017
4
American Indians. Thought that misnomer had been put to bed. Indians come from India. The natives of America are native Americans, or known by their tribe names. There is no such thing as American Indian unless you are talking about someone who has come from India and lives in the US. Sorry for going off topic but I find this annoying.
You’ll probably find a lot of things annoying if you object to simple language.
Thank you for your question. The answer is "no", I would not refuse service to those people. Maybe you mis-understand my stand. It takes a moron to turn away good business. My stand is simply this, the owner of a business, by right of ownership, should have the right to do business, or not, with any one he chooses. That regardless of your sex, creed, race, religion, or sexual orientation, just because you walked in my door, does not mean I have to do business with you
The signs in business windows should read:
OPEN FOR THOSE WHO QUALIFY - Consult the list of approved customers
evidentialist
Level 8
Dec 10, 2017
1
Thank you
Because these customers are being discriminated against because of who and what they are, not their behavior.
amberliberty1
Level 4
Dec 10, 2017
2
Thank you for your reply.
You are most welcome.
If an individual entered a tattoo shop and requested that a swastika themed tattoo be created and tattooed on them ,do you think the artist has the right to refuse .Even though I personally do not share the bakers beliefs ,in principle it is the same thing.This man did not refuse to let them purchase anything but refused to artistically design or create something that were against his moral beliefs .
richiegtt
Level 8
Dec 10, 2017
2
Makes perfect sense, I agree with this viewpoint
I hold that a business owner should have the right to refuse service to anyone, for any reason. Notice I said "owner". I contend that the owner of a business has the right of property, if I bought it, I own it, and can do with it as I please. I'm not in business for the good of the public, I am in business for my own personal good, and if I choose to be stupid and turn away business, my bad.
And thank you and HarrySlick for your input.
The law says they may not discriminate. If you want to change that law, go ahead and write up a bill that says business may discriminate based on sexual orientation. Let's make it explicit so the religious nuts will have to extend their cognitive dissonance even more to pretend they're good people.
Are you looking for the right to throw all women out of your store because this one time a woman was rude to you? It's hardly a parallel if not.
DJVJ311
Level 7
Dec 10, 2017
6
I'm going to dis-agree with you, top to bottom, a parallel would be a law that says a business owner has the same rights as the customer. The choice to do business with each other, or not. Thank you for your reply.
It doesn’t sound like you’re at odds. It sounds like you are pretty comfortable saying that you should be allowed to ban brown people or women and the law(not ethics of any kind) prevents you. I was simply pointing out that the law allows you to deny service or sales to individuals, not classes of people.
Exactly right. I am comfortablt saying that a person owning his business, should have the right to do business, or not do business, with anyone he chooses, for any reason he chooses.
The rules relative to public accommodation are clear. You sell to the public. That means good ones, bad ones and everything in between. Nothing in the law protects rudeness. That’s different.
VolPa
Level 2
Dec 10, 2017
1
Thank you
I'm with you. I don't feel comfortable taking a side on this one at all. I mean, the baker sucks for sure, but he didn't refuse service... (if I remember correctly) he told them he didn't want to create a custom wedding cake for them, but that they could purchase any that were already made... or something like that. I can understand the baker's position on an artist level. If a white supremacist came into my hypothetical design shop and asked me to create their new logo, I would not oblige. And in no way am I equating a gay couple with nazis, I am just trying to illustrate that we cannot dictate someone else's work related obligations.
I am very saddened by the couple's experience. I do not understand how a few of us (humans) can be so unaccepting of any of us. (I'm trying to use "us" instead of "them" wherever possible as a social initiative.)
FoxyMoron
Level 5
Dec 10, 2017
8
One of the few valid comments
Thank you, thank you, thankyou, and HarrySlick. Boy!,do I feel validated or what. At least partially.
There's a genuine exception to be made in an artist accepting or refusing a commission. You shouldn't be expected to put significant time, effort and love into something that you're morally conflicted over. And there's even an argument for rejecting a commission on the basis that you don't wish to participate in the spreading of the sentiment. In the example of your white supremacists: should a printer feel obliged to print leaflets for them, to help them disseminate their ideology?
Where it differs is that, by any reasonable moral yardstick, someone refusing to make a gay wedding cake due to 'personal objections' is a bigot. Someone refusing to duplicate a white supremacist message is making a stand against bigotry.
If you choose to be a business serving the public you must serve all the public whether or not you agree with what ever group they belong to if not that is discrimination. Not serving someone based on their behaviour in your premises is not should they not leave when you ask makes them guilty of trespass.
I run my own business and I even serve evangelical christians, whom I despise, should I be able to refuse them service because I don't like them?
HeathenFarmer
Level 8
Dec 10, 2017
3
Exactly this!
Thank you for your reply. In a word "yes". I do understand the law, I'm saying I dis-agree with it. I think religions, and the religious, are way more dangerous to us as a nation than any thing else, but hateing, despiseing, takes way too much energy and happiness out of my life.
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